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Post by Eli Brayley on Apr 15, 2007 21:30:16 GMT -7
I know there is still quite some time before the election, but after observing the candidates, it doesn't look to good for the future of the United States. I fear for this country, particularly if Hillary Clinton or Barack Oboma make it to office. I do not believe either of them are able to confront the issue of Islam. Next election is going to be critically significant for the future of the world. If the United States falls apart, which it will eventually, then the world will go with it. As sinful as the U.S. is, it's the one country left that is withholding the winds of a new and fearsome stage of God's timeline. I pray that God would give grace to mankind and be patient, but at the same time I say, Marantha. Come Lord Jesus.
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Post by graham on May 31, 2007 13:10:12 GMT -7
I have to admit that I would disagree with your previous post Eli. I believe that the problem that Islam presents the world is a result of what happens when poverty leaves people with what they feel is no other option. Now, due to some decisions made by the current government (which has been tagged as "Christian"), good or bad, fundamentalist Muslim leaders have been given the flame they need to ignite the fire they have been trying to build for years. They call upon the the oppressed to rise against the great Satan in a holy war, and the people they call out to? poor men who have nothing in their lives due to war, drought etc. These men have nothing to lose, so they blow themselves up in the hope of some eternal reward. Obviously there are exceptions, men coming from western countries to train in camps, but the majority of the men who engage in this "holy war" are poor farmers with little or no means to survive. If you truly want to fight the threat of "Islam", i.e. terrorism, then you must meet peoples basic needs. The same problems are evident within the US itself. Poor housing communities means little funding for the schools, which makes getting a decent education, and a decent job, really tough. These people have no hope in their life, they can barely make rent, they can hardly feed themselves, so they turn to gangs/crime for some satisfaction in life. When people are in want, they turn to any hope that is present. The church needs to rise up against this problem yes, but not by preaching against other doctrines, they need to do it by following Christs example, coming to them on their level, and feeding their earthly bodies before they feed their spiritual ones. I truly believe that many Christians these days forget to look at Jesus' life. He even blatantly states that those who are truly his followers “ Feed those who are hungry, visit those sick or in prison, and invite strangers in” not “Condemn the beliefs of others.” What good is it to tell a beggar that Jesus loves him with out showing him that love first. Well I have to go eat, I hope what I was trying to say makes sense, I'm horrible at keeping thoughts on track while typing.
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Post by Eli Brayley on Jun 4, 2007 11:57:39 GMT -7
Hi Graham, Well we can't agree on everything right? I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean... it's sort of a naturalistic view you are taking towards this highly complex issue. Islam is more than just a world view birthed from poverty. Mohammad was not a pauper, quite a successful merchant actually. He led a bloody war against the Meccans and converted the Arab people by the sword. Today, Muslim nations are really quite wealthy! You must be thinking of the Palestinians, but even this is a much deeper spiritual problem. If the Palestinians really were in desperate need they could easily live in Israel peacefully without a problem. But they would never do that, because the Palestinian conflict is immersed in a steep hatred for Israel... the Muslims nations around Israel want them run into the sea. No Arab map has Israel on it. The Palestinian "freedom fight" is a tactic to win world favor and anti-Israeli spirit. Islam is demonic, not demographic. If poverty leads to Islam, then then what of the rich Muslim nations, and what of the poor non-Muslim nations? And why the hatred of Israel? And why the beheadings and violent jihads promoted in the Quran in the name of God? "Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son." 1 John 2:22
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Post by graham on Jun 6, 2007 14:26:13 GMT -7
Hey Eli, glad to hear that you are doing good work in Victoria, keep it up!
Any way, I think the issue that I tried to address in my last post was regarding Islam in contrast to terrorism, now that I read back, I see I did not make that very clear. You may disagree, but I do not think the two are inter connected, no more so then Judeaism and terrorism. Yes Mohammed spread his word by the sword, but we need to remeber how the Isrealites took the promise land, Leaving no man, woman or child alive. Also, you claim that in the palestinians could live peafuly side by side with Isreal if it were only an issue with poverty. But take one look at history to see that when people are poor and destitue, they look for others to blame. France was a Christian nation, yet population rose against the aristocrates, and we all know how well that ended.
I am in no way implying that things move about without Gods hand, but mearly that people, as sinful beings, have a tendency to blame others for their misfortune, Muslim or not. If a man cannot feed his family, how much more likely is he to turn to violence then a man with a full storehouse? It is hard for us in the west to comprehend what poverty does to a person.
Anyway, I need to go, God bless.
Graham
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Post by Eli Brayley on Jun 6, 2007 22:43:33 GMT -7
It is definitely true what you are saying that poverty can force people to act in hostility as shown in history, but the topic was Islam, and the facts remain that many wealthy Muslim nations hate Israel, hate Christians, and hate you; and this hatred has nothing to do with poverty but evil.
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Post by alan4jc on Jun 6, 2007 23:06:05 GMT -7
It is definitely true what you are saying that poverty can force people to act in hostility as shown in history, but the topic was Islam, and the facts remain that many wealthy Muslim nations hate Israel, hate Christians, and hate you; and this hatred has nothing to do with poverty but evil. True, and the Muslim world will stop at nothing it seems at this point in history. Perhaps our days in the U S are numbered.
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Post by graham on Jun 7, 2007 14:38:36 GMT -7
I don;t really see what you are getting at here. First of all, by "Many Muslim countries" I think you should be writing "Many ARAB countries" There is a difference between Islam and Arabs. As for hating Israel, it is kind of understandable why there is animosity there. Imagine the entire population of native North Americans gathered together and said " we owned this land 500 years ago, so everyone living in the US needs to leave and allow us to take their land and homes for ourselves" It probably would not go over too well. The whole issue is regarding Israel, and the problems in the middle east are a result of ridiculous decision making in the post colonial era, by Christian nations. It is really easy for us to say that this side is good, that side is bad, and ignore the fact that we may very well have caused the problem with our own actions.( Saddam gassed a couple thousand Kurds, well the British gassed 20 000 Iraqis in the early 20th century, yet we conveniently overlook that) Isn't that the way sin works? we find ourselves making excuses, allowing little things into our lives, and before we know it the consequences of that sin is staring us in the face.
Let's say for a minute that Islam does have an agenda to destroy the world. What are you suggesting needs to be done? Wipe them out? Preach them to conversion? Well, if you truly wish to show them the love of Christ, you need to address their basic needs, which is what I was trying to say from the beginning. Just because an Arab country has oil, does not make it's citizens rich. Most of that money goes to western countries, or to line the pockets of select aristocrats. Who are able to stay in power by provoking their poor to hatred against the West because of all they lack.
As for Muslims hating me, I have to admit that I find that somewhat of a bold statement. I will concur that members of some terrorist organizations probably hate me, that certain fundamental Islamic leaders probably hate me ( well at least the idea of me, I don't really know all that many) but to say that all Muslims hate me is kind of absurd. Most probably don't care about me. Why should they? In fact, I know several Muslim people, and they never attacked me with a sword, blew themselves up, or even made a rude gesture in my direction, they were actually pretty polite people.
All I am trying to say with this is that: 1. We cannot discount our own involvement in the sin, and the suffering, of others. 2. Jesus told us that only those who feed the hungry, visit the sick etc. shall enter the kingdom of God, so I am trying to approach the issue from that point of view. and 3. We cannot let the actions of a few determine our opinion of the many. (Other wise how would Christians be viewed? The inquisition, colonialism, witch hunts, these don't really line up with the Christ I know.)
Let me know what you think.
God bless.
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Post by Eli Brayley on Jun 9, 2007 11:50:29 GMT -7
Graham,
Islam is more than just a religion, it's a form of government. It owns and operates nations bound by it's religious code. Islam is not an individualistic religion, but is a domineering political kingdom. The Quran isn't about converting this soul here and that soul here only... it's goal is nations and thrones. The kingdom of Allah is pushing to be established all throughout the world. The enemies of Allah or friends of Satan must be destroyed. No joke.
Brother, as much as people hate it, God gave Israel that land. Do you think the Canaanites liked it when Joshua began conquering their land and destroying their cities? But God gave them that land, and as much as it goes against the humanistic stream, God did it. Who said one side is good or bad? Israel is no better than anyone else, perhaps even worse! Most Jews today reject Jehovah and are living secular depraved lifestyles. It has nothing to do with whose the good guys and whose the bad. It has to do with God's sovereign grace and the fact that He gave Israel that land forever. If the covenant that God made with Abraham is broken then it's God who is a liar. He never lies, and He upholds Israel for His Name's sake, not for theirs.
To be perfectly honest with you, I don't think there is anything we can do but extend to them the love of Jesus Christ. It's just inevitable now, not if, but when, that they shall infiltrate and bring down our society. The love of Jesus in the face of evil is all that we Christians can do. "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 5:44-45)
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Post by kerrigan on Jun 13, 2007 10:11:51 GMT -7
May we preach the Gospel to ALL creation while there is still time left for us and them!
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Post by graham on Jun 19, 2007 19:48:33 GMT -7
One only needs to look at the crusades to see Christianity used as a TOOL for political means. I agree that today, and in the past, Islam was used as a political tool, but many Muslims look at this with as much distaste as we look at George Bush invoking the name of God for ungodly purposes. I agree that God gave his land to his chosen people, but try telling that to a displaced Palestinian farmer, who does not believe the scriptures, and he may not take too kindly to it. My point with that was to give an example of how certain people can take the situations people are in and use it to their own ends. This was my point from the start, we need to love them. All this talk of the Great Evil of Islam, and how they shall destroy our society. We fill ourselves with fear, which turns to rejection and hatred. How can we say we love someone when we obsess over their "evil". Remember that we are evil as well, we worship false idols everyday. Whether it be TV, money, or activities that we place above the Lord. We must love them unconditionally. That means seeing AND meeting their needs. Many people living in "Muslim" countries are some of the poorest in the world. If we as Christians tell a Muslim that he needs to repent from evil, but leave him with no food, shelter etc. what use are we? The Bible tells us that if we tell a person "Lord be with you" but do not feed him, what good are we? God is Love, and we need to love them by reaching out physically as well as spiritually. I guess to tie this back to the initial point ( I kind of meandered, but judging from our past late night conversations, that's hardly uncommon! You were worried that Clinton and Obama were ill equipped to deal with the threat. Well they also have some of the best platforms regarding helping the poor both at home and abroad. By showing a loving face to the world, it would take away much of the fuel the leaders use to stir up hatred. Any way, God Bless, I hope that your time in Victoria is uplifting to you and those around you. P.S Please note, this is not an effort to prop up one party/candidate over another. Both Obama and Clinton have flaws, as well as questionable policies. I just wanted to address a concern I have been hit with lately.
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Post by Eli Brayley on Jun 20, 2007 9:56:39 GMT -7
No, it's cool Graham. I appreciate your concerns. Point well taken. Bless you to brother, -Eli
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Post by puellalaeta on Jun 22, 2007 13:10:01 GMT -7
I’m jumping in a bit late here, but I’ve just come across a good resource about the subject of Islam and the Muslim mindset. It may be helpful with relation to this discussion. Escape from Darkness is a DVD talk given by Dr. Daniel Shayesteh, a former Muslim and one of the founders of the Iranian Revolutionary Army and Hezbollah. Dr. Shayesteh became a born-again disciple of Christ in Turkey and now travels the world speaking on issues related to Islam. He does not specifically address the issues of poverty brought up by Graham, but he does share much about what makes a Muslim “tick.” He speaks about the governmental drive of Islam and how, to a Muslim, the building of a mosque signifies ownership of the land it is built in. And he also speaks of the goals of committed Muslims: (1) to decimate the Jews in Israel and build an Islamic state there, and (2) to destroy America. Why destroy America? Dr. Shayesteh’s answer is stunning: America is the only superpower Christian country in the world, America sends out many missionaries into the world, and America has many resident Jews (and non-Jews) who support the survival of the state of Israel. The Muslims see this as a spiritual battle, and Dr. Shayesteh urges Christians to realize that. Yes, we do need to love the Muslims—Dr. Shayesteh’s wonderful testimony shows that dramatically. I won’t spoil the story for you, but it is the love and practical help of the Turkish Christians that amazed him and kept drawing him back to their church. It's a good demonstration of your point, Graham! Christians should love the Muslims and share the Gospel of Christ with them, but I think we should also be wise in recognizing their mindset and goals. And government leaders definitely have a responsibility to stand up to Islamic jihad and to stand against the destruction of Israel and the United States. I hope the DVD is helpful to anyone who is interested (you can buy it here: www.answersingenesis.org/PublicStore/ ) It is a delight to hear Dr. Shayesteh’s story and to witness his overflowing joy in the Gospel, and it is also sobering to hear about Islam’s goals from an insider. In Christ, Michelle
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Post by runner4jesus on Jul 13, 2007 20:39:07 GMT -7
Amen! Michelle: Glad you shared about Escape from Darkness, will look into it. This next election is crucial. We should all pray and pay attention to it. It's more than a political victory, it's going to strengthen this nation or open the doors our enemies are waiting for. God is in control. We were looking at Thompson. Islam is a demonic force God is allowing in his end time plan, don't you think? Very possibly could be the political/religious guise behind anti-christ he will use to bring him to power. We've never seen anything like this as long as we have lived. I'm 65 and Tim is 73. Believe me this is astronomical and a powerful movement that is satanic. The quran does contain big time hatred of Christians and Jews, but remember what Moses told God's people in, Exodus 14:13 And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever. God has not changed, he is still the same powerful God we serve and the Islamic force will be dealt with by the Lord himself. One thing we need to remember from, John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me, draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. Not one Muslim will come to Christ unless the Father draw him first, and he has saved many. There will be divine appointments to share and give to these that need Jesus.
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Post by Eli Brayley on Jul 14, 2007 10:35:25 GMT -7
I greatly look forward to watching the video.
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Post by kerrigan on Sept 8, 2007 19:52:44 GMT -7
I vote for Ron Paul! ;D
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