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Post by danlirette on Apr 2, 2008 21:30:18 GMT -7
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Post by Eli Brayley on Apr 2, 2008 23:17:38 GMT -7
What can I even say to say how incredible that was. An amen isn't even sufficient.
Hallelujah! Everybody must watch this!
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Post by inhislove on Apr 2, 2008 23:34:55 GMT -7
Wow, that was amazing!!! Paul Washer preached about repentance just the way Eli has been defining it.
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Post by puzzled on Apr 10, 2008 8:14:47 GMT -7
Why does Paul Washer preach babies are depraved? I think I heard him preach that if a baby wanted a wrist watch their father was wearing, if they were able, they would rip his arm off and steal it. That seems a bit extreme.
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Post by danlirette on Apr 10, 2008 8:22:56 GMT -7
Why does Paul Washer preach babies are depraved? I think I heard him preach that if a baby wanted a wrist watch their father was wearing, if they were able, they would rip his arm off and steal it. That seems a bit extreme. Looking at the overall lifestyle, Ministry and message of Paul Washer (and all who preach Holiness) should cause us to refrain from straining at gnats and dwelling on such things as you're speaking of. I would exhort you to rejoice in the message of Paul Washer and all who preach genuine Biblical Holiness, which is to repent and continue in the Faith. The Lord bless you. |
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Post by puzzled on Apr 13, 2008 18:28:53 GMT -7
Forgive me, but could you answer my question? I am sure Mr. Washer is a 'good' man by your standard. Having a ministry, lifesytle, and message doesn't mean that he has God's message. Benny Hinn, Joel Osteen, and a host of others believe they have a ministry but what they teach is clearly false by the Bible.
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Post by cornyflake on May 28, 2008 7:24:56 GMT -7
This view of the innocence of childhood/babies is a more modern phenomena. You'll see a similar view to that of Paul Washer in the writings of St. Augustine. He looked at babies' crying as being a sign of their selfishness and self-centeredness. Wah, wah, it's all about me, feed me, look at me, I want that, give it to me, etc. I recall listening to a sermon talking about the differences in Childrens bibles over time. The old children's bibles had all those gruesome stories we read in the OT while the more modern childrens bibles, with the assumption that children are innocent, eliminate those stories and go for more cuddly, nicer stories.
Paul Washer is simply expressing the truly biblical idea that we are born wicked sinners. Yes, that baby is a wicked, depraved, God-hating creature. Our sin is inherent - we are a race of God-haters. It's in our blood. That's why we need a rebirth, a transplant, from Adam's lineage to that of Christ.
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Post by puzzled on May 28, 2008 15:32:47 GMT -7
St. Augustine is the benchmark for truth? C'mon corny you can do better than that! So we go to give some of our sin at the blood bank we become more holy? I agree we need to be born again of the Holy Ghost. We will be new creatures in Christ, who hate, resist, and despise sin. But, sin is a moral or immoral decision/choice not some stuff in our blood or our bodies. 1 John 3:4 We know that we know that we are saved IF we keep His commands.
The changing of the Bible translations is not in response to the innocense of children but the wickedness of men.
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Post by 4him on May 28, 2008 21:02:03 GMT -7
My take on this is that the doctrine of original sin is a biblical doctrine and that selfishness can be easily seen in the behaviour of humans at a very early age. Having said this, I don't believe that every time a baby cries, it is exhibiting selfish behaviour. Crying is also a baby's primary means of communication and I would suspect that even Jesus cried as a baby.
I believe that the idea that a very young baby would rip a wrist watch off its father's wrist is a bit of an overstatement, although I do understand the point that Paul Washer was wanting to make. The inclination of human beings from birth is to please ourselves and to satisfy our own desires. However, at that age if a baby were to take its father's watch, the moral culpability would not be the same as it would be for a 5 year old. I watched Paul Washer's 'Shocking Message' that he delivered at a youth conference and I believe that he is a man of God, and has an important message for this generation.
In Jesus,
John
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Post by cornyflake on May 29, 2008 3:48:51 GMT -7
St. Augustine is the benchmark for truth? C'mon corny you can do better than that! So we go to give some of our sin at the blood bank we become more holy? I agree we need to be born again of the Holy Ghost. We will be new creatures in Christ, who hate, resist, and despise sin. But, sin is a moral or immoral decision/choice not some stuff in our blood or our bodies. 1 John 3:4 We know that we know that we are saved IF we keep His commands. The changing of the Bible translations is not in response to the innocense of children but the wickedness of men. I quoted Augustine not as a source of truth, but in response to this assumption that Paul Washer's view is "extreme". It added credibility to this application of scripture by showing that it is not some new "extreme" application dreamed up by crazy old man washer, but in-fact a legitimate idea with a history among those who hold a biblical world view (notably the most influential theologian in all of history outside of scripture). What Paul Washer said is a direct application of the doctrine of original sin. Original sin says that we aren't born good or amoral creatures (childhood innocence) but wicked, God-hating creatures. We are born opposed to God - it's not simply learned or developed but inherited from Adam - it's in our blood. Now this means that, yes, that baby would do horrible acts if it could. Do you deny or not understand original sin? If so, I'd be glad to explain it. |
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Post by 4him on May 29, 2008 9:00:31 GMT -7
Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it. Deut. 1:39
For before the children shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings. Isaiah 7:16
Do these scriptures imply that while we all inherit a sin nature from Adam, there is a certain point in time at which we possess the 'knowledge' of what good and evil are ?
In Jesus,
John
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Post by cornyflake on Jun 12, 2008 13:28:07 GMT -7
Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it. Deut. 1:39 For before the children shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings. Isaiah 7:16 Do these scriptures imply that while we all inherit a sin nature from Adam, there is a certain point in time at which we possess the 'knowledge' of what good and evil are ? In Jesus, John I think you're right. Those verses clearly state that children may go about sinning, but are ignorant of it until a later time. Now whether God condemns them or not I don't know. Any thoughts? What translation did you use for Isaiah 7:16? Because I don't think it's "the children", but "the boy" or "the child" (aka Jesus). That is significant because we're now talking about a time in the sinless God-man's life before he knew to refuse evil and choose good. What's that all about? We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners. |
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Miles Lewis
New Member
Not some cream puff pie preacher
Posts: 31
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Post by Miles Lewis on Jun 12, 2008 17:52:54 GMT -7
"You'll see a similar view to that of Paul Washer in the writings of St. Augustine. He looked at babies' crying as being a sign of their selfishness and self-centeredness. Wah, wah, it's all about me, feed me, look at me, I want that, give it to me, etc"
So do you think Jesus ever cried when he was hungry?
I don't even have a dogmatic stance on this I am just saying...
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Post by cornyflake on Jun 12, 2008 23:50:39 GMT -7
"You'll see a similar view to that of Paul Washer in the writings of St. Augustine. He looked at babies' crying as being a sign of their selfishness and self-centeredness. Wah, wah, it's all about me, feed me, look at me, I want that, give it to me, etc" So do you think Jesus ever cried when he was hungry? I don't even have a dogmatic stance on this I am just saying... I don't know if baby Jesus cried. Yea, it seems far-fetched to believe that a baby didn't cry...and that a toddler didn't act selfishly and that a kid didn't say "no!" to his parents and...Jesus must have been an odd, almost otherworldly, person. What I do take a stand on is original sin - that babies are sinners. Sinners will use whatever medium available to sin. Since a baby's primary medium is crying, some of it will obviously be sin. However, a baby's cries are shaky grounds for a belief in original sin, so I tend to go to the Bible for that. Meditating on Original Sin and Predestination are 2 doctrines that have put me where I need to be and where God needs to be. "God loves the sinner, but hates the sin" is a bunch of unchristian bs that diminishes what Jesus accomplished on the Cross. BTW, I love what you, Eli, and others are doing! It is so inspiring. That's where the gospel belongs. |
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Post by runner4jesus on Jun 13, 2008 7:19:51 GMT -7
 Just a little note. I think Jesus did cry as a baby. I don't go by what Augustine said at all, the Word of God says it plainly in Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; (weaknesses) but was in ALL POINTS TEMPTED (tested) like as we are, yet without sin. Augustine was not infallible, it is just his own opinion. Jesus felt what we felt. We cried as a baby and he must have too. It's ridiculous to what Augustine thought about this. He must have cried because he was hungry or wet. He knew hunger and he knew what it was to be weary. John 4:6-7 Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, BEING WEARIED with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour: v.7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, GIVE ME TO DRINK. Jesus was weary and thirsty. Augustine is spiritualizing how Jesus was too much. Babies cry because they are hungry, wet and want love. Jesus being as we are and yet without sin must have experienced these things as a babe.
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Just a little note. I think Jesus did cry as a baby. I don't go by what Augustine said at all, the Word of God says it plainly in Hebrews 4:15