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Post by starjsr on Jun 6, 2007 12:38:22 GMT -7
Dear Eli Brayley:
I downloaded a video from Google where you have debate on the street with a Jew and you wanted to understand what Jews say to Daniel 9
I am Jewish and I'd like to discuss that point by point, without any mention of the New testament or the Talmud (since we don't believe in either one), so here goes and sorry but you are wrong, let me explain:
1. Do you understand Hebrew? (if not will have to go through some translation issues)
2. The word Mushiach appears in the Jewish bible 39 times, how many time do Christians translate that into "The Messiah" only 2x, here in Daniel 9 verse 25 & 26 (take out your bible and check) in all other places its correctly translated into "anointed" why is that?
And how did they get the word "The" (The Messiah) ? (that would only be correct if it said "HaMushiach" which means in Hebrew "Ha"... the known one)
3. Do you notice that the verse speaks about 2 anointer's (Messiah's) one is Mushiach Nugid (a anointed prince) and the 2nd is Mushiach (a anointed), so this cannot be possibly speaking about Jesus, unless there is 2 Jesus's?
4. Do you notice that the verse speaks about 2 different decades, one is after 7 weeks (7x7= 49 years, when the first anointed comes) and the other is after 62 weeks (7x62= 434 years when the 2nd anointed gets cut off and is no more), [look in YOUR 1611 king James bible and you will that his how the verse should be translate] how does Jesus fit into this picture please explain??
5. Verse 26 starts "Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the word" what word is he speaking about and what's even going in here? well you have to understand verse 25 & 26 in context, wouldn't you? I'll explain in short:
Jeremiah the prophet said that the Jews will be in Babylonian exile 70 years and Daniel thinking that the 70 years already past, was wondering and trying to understand the prophecy of Jeremiah and its calculations, he thought that the Jews sinned so much that we will get 7 x 70 (469 years) in exile (look in verse 2 you will see what his problem was "over the number of years"), until G-d sent down the angel Gabriel to explain the whole prophecy and its calculations to Daniel.
As you can see for yourself the Daniel 9 is not talking about salvation or about "The Messiah", its only talking about the Jews in exile and the destruction of Jerusalem prior to the babylonian exile.
6. Do you know that the bible never ever refers with the word Yikureis (being cut off) on a righteous person? this is only a term for wicked people throughout the bible.
Here's the correct translation of verse 26: And after the sixty two weeks (7x62= 434 years) shall an anointed one (the high-priesthood, [the high-priest of the temple is called anointed many times in the bible] which was wicked indeed at the end of the 2nd temple) be cut off, and be no more (there won't be any high-priesthood afterwards, as is the case today), and the people of a prince (the armies of Rome) that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary (destruction of the 2nd temple), but his end shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
7. The 2nd Mushiach cannot be talking about Jesus, since from the dead of Jesus (approx. 30 CE) until the destruction of the 2nd temple (approx. 70 CE) is still 5-12 weeks to go (about 40 years)
8. Verse 27 what does it talk about "And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease" how do you explain this one week and half week before the dead of Jesus?? Of course its very clear into the right way of interpretation, just read a little history and you will see that the Jewish sages made an agreement with the Roman emperor to allow them continue the sacrifice in the temple, this is the covenant which was broken a short few years after the making of the covenant.
You said on the video that "on the day of judgment all Jews who don't believe in Jesus will be killed, as it says in Daniel 9", I couldn't find it can you be helpful and showing me the verse(s)?
Please take your time and reply, my request to you if you find out that you are wrong on this one, will you stop preaching Daniel 9 or not? will you admit that you were wrong? are you looking for the truth or you just care for your own agenda? be honest & sincere with yourself.
If you show me that I am wrong I will admit that I was wrong, I am just looking for word of G-d and his truth and nothing else. do you?
Thanks
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Post by Eli Brayley on Jun 6, 2007 21:22:49 GMT -7
Dear Joel,
Thank you so much for emailing me and sharing your views, I sincerely appreciate it. I truly hope this will be a good time of studying the Scriptures together regarding our precious Messiah. May the Lord bless you. I hope my answers to your questions will be helpful:
1. Well, I don't speak Hebrew, but I'm not a stranger to language.
2. You are right about the word being used 39 times and the correct rendition is anointed. Many of the references deal with the anointed Levitical priesthood or prophets/kings etc, and are not actually speaking about Messiah. However, certain of the passages are indeed referring to Messiah, "the horn of His anointed." (1 Samuel 2:10,35) Another such reference of Messiah is in Daniel 9, this much is clear. If you maintain the translation "anointed" in Daniel 9 it still works the same, for the Messiah is God's Anointed One, and in the Greek, Christos means "Anointed One". So you could translate it anointed or Messiah, it is the same thing, because Messiah is God's Anointed One.
3. As I read Daniel 9 it seems quite straightforward that verse 25 and 26 are speaking about the same person, not two anointed ones.
4. This is an interesting view of the passage which you have presented, one I have not heard, though I find fault in it. I am interested to know who you think a first anointed one, the Prince, was, 49 years after the going forth of the command to rebuild Jerusalem. Next, how does 432 years from the going forth of the commandment fit with your later explanation in point 6, fulfillment in 70 AD? If the command to rebuild the ruins of Jerusalem was issued by Cyrus to Ezra c. 536 BC, that would make your interpretation fall short by 166 years, so that can't be. If the command to rebuild the ruins of Jerusalem was issued by Artaxerxes to Nehemiah c. 450 BC, that still makes your interpretation fall short of 70 AD by 78 years. It simply cannot be. Do you follow what I mean?
I only see one time period being laid down in verse 25, "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times." 7 + 62 = 69. So it would be 69 weeks from the going forth of the commandment unto Messiah the Prince. That is, 483 years. This type of numerical language is an old English thing... see how they translate people's ages in Scripture. "And these are the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, a hundred threescore and fifteen years." (Genesis 25:7) The numbers add into one sum. It really just means 175 years.
5. The dabar or "word" to restore and build Jerusalem is just that. Daniel is in exile, the Persians are in control, and Jerusalem lies in ruins. The angel Gabriel is saying that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and rebuild Jerusalem which at that time lay in ruins. When the command to rebuild is given, there will be 483 years until Messiah the Prince.
6. Like I wrote already above, your interpretation here is severely flawed. If the fulfillment of the Mushiach being cut off is the destruction of the temple in 70 AD, and the interval period is 432 years from the going forth of the commandment, you are way off in timing. It simply can't be correct to place the fulfillment at 70 AD. Here is how it is, Joel:
-There is prophesied 483 years from the going forth of the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem unto Messiah the Prince. -The commandment is given by Artaxerxes to Nehemiah c. 450 B.C. (Nehemiah 2) -This is further proven by additional comment, "...the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times." The Book of Nehemiah describes this exactly. -Precisely 483 years from c. 450 BC Yeshua of the line of David, born in Bethlehem, was crucified, fulfilling the yikureis, "...but not for Himself" -Afterwards, the Romans "that shall come" will destroy the city and the sanctuary in 70 AD
My dear friend, you struck an extremely significant point when you said that yikureis is never used for righteous men but only unrighteous. That is the marvelous wisdom and mystery of God: that Messiah was before prophesied to be the sacrificial lamb to take away our sins; He Himself was "wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." (Isaiah 53:5-6) Yeshua Meshiach was the Righteous Anointed One, but He took our sins upon Him and went to the cross in our place. "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree." (1 Peter 2:24) Even the prophet Isaiah goes on to say: "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted." (Isaiah 53:4) "...and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." (Isaiah 53:12) Though He committed not one sin, He was yikureis for us who deserve it.
I pray that you would come to see that Yeshua is the Christ, the Anointed One, whom the prophets before Him prophesied of, Joel. Jesus is your Messiah and mine. He died for you, and you can be righteous before God through the blood of His atonement. But without the blood there is no remission of sins, and mankind is lost in unbelief.
Lastly, the prophecy of the final week of Daniel when the nugid, or prince, (not Messiah) causes the sacrifices to cease is answered later in Daniel chapter 8. It's an eschatological, or end time, event which has not happened yet. According to both Old Testament and New Testament prophesy, a third temple is going to built in modern day Israel and an anti-Messiah will come and cause the sacrifices to cease, exalting himself in the temple as God. This is described repeatedly in Daniel, and further light is shed on him in the New Testament. So this is a future event, and one that is terrible as well. Even today, preparations are being made for the fourth temple to be built. Watch out!
Yes my friend, I am a lover of truth! But I have found the truth. As Yeshua our Saviour and Lord said, "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." God bless you, Joel.
With much respect, -Eli
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Post by starjsr on Jun 8, 2007 11:11:20 GMT -7
Dear Eli, Thank you so much for replying, my nightmare that you will simply run away delete my post or ignore my email is over, now I know I have an intelligent person with whom I can honestly debate the scriptures and our point of views, I appreciate that very much. Eli: “However, certain of the passages are indeed referring to Messiah, "the horn of His anointed." (1 Samuel 2:10,35)”Me: We both agree that when we speak about “The Messiah” we refer to the person who will lead us into ultimate salvation brought by G-d at the end of days. We only defer who that person would be and how it would come about. When the bible talks about this person who will come at the end of days it never refers to him as “The Messiah” see for example Isaiah Chapter 11, where the whole chapter goes into great detail about this person but it doesn’t mention the word “messiah” at all. 1 Samuel Chapter 2 verse 10 says as follow: G-d should shatter those who oppose him. In heaven Hashem will thunder against them, he will judge the ends of the earth. "And he will give strength to his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed." Clearly the verse talks about a king and an anointed person, the question is who the king is and who is the anointed? And why is one referred to as king and the other to anointed? The answer to this question is found in the context of the chapter, as you can see Chana talks about here son Samuel & g-d, so when she said “Malko” or “Meshicho” (his king or his anointed she was refereeing to either Samuel or g-d, if you understand Hebrew you will notice that verse talks about Samuel since it starts out by saying: “G-d should shatter those who oppose him” now if him means G-d, do you think that G-d needs the prayers of Chana to shatter those who oppose him, of course he will do just that without her advice or prayers, that’s why he is G-d, certainly it talks about Samuel, and so when she continues at the end of the verse saying that ”he will give strength to his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed” it means the one who is made king and the one who is anointed by Samuel, the king being Shaul and the anointed being David, the difference between them is, that Shaul was crowned king in the life of Samuel whereas David was only anointed by Samuel but was not yet king in his lifetime. How you see “the Messiah” in this verse is beyond me. Eli: “Another such reference of Messiah is in Daniel 9, this much is clear. If you maintain the translation "anointed" in Daniel 9 it still works the same, for the Messiah is God's Anointed One, and in the Greek, Christos means "Anointed One". So you could translate it anointed or Messiah, it is the same thing, because Messiah is God's Anointed One.”Me: When you translate the word “Messiah” into “Messiah” you have not done any translation at all, its like saying the definition of the word “tree” is “tree” What you are doing here is adding the word “the” so that it should point to someone who is known and stands out from all other Messiah’s (kings, high-priests) as “The messiah” hence the person who will come at the end of days (which as mentioned above there is not such reference in the bible). However the main problem here is that the verse doesn’t have the Hebrew letter of “H” attached in the beginning of the word, so saying “the” is a real misinterpretation.
Eli: 3. As I read Daniel 9 it seems quite straightforward that verse 25 and 26 are speaking about the same person, not two anointed ones.
Me: Then please explain why the bible had to differentiate [or change title] from the first anointed as being a prince and the second one not being a prince.
Eli: Next, how does 432 years from the going forth of the commandment fit with your later explanation in point 6, fulfillment in 70 AD? If the command to rebuild the ruins of Jerusalem was issued by Cyrus to Ezra c. 536 BC, that would make your interpretation fall short by 166 years, so that can't be. It simply cannot be. Do you follow what I mean?
I only see one time period being laid down in verse 25, "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times." Seven plus 62 = 69. So it would be 69 weeks from the going forth of the commandment unto Messiah the Prince. That is, 483 years.
To be honest with you, I am not so good in the whole BCE, CE, AD stuff ever since the world was created Jews have counted & documented the years in their sophisticated Solar/Lunar calendar, no years are missing, nothing clashes, nothing has been changed or hopped over, whereas the Christian calendar is way to complicated in many instances, often time you need a good head scratch to figure out the calculations which doesn’t even fit into the picture as nice & pure as the Jewish Calendar. Take this for example: every 128 years the calendar was out of sync with the equinoxes and solstices by one additional day…..Ten days were omitted from the calendar to bring the calendar back in line with the solstices, and Pope Gregory XIII decreed that the day following Thursday, October 4, 1582 would be Friday, October 15, 1582 and from then on the reformed Gregorian calendar would be used. (read more: www.searchforancestors.com/utility/gregorian.html ).
So I will give you here the chronology & timeline on the whole 70 years and the verses in Daniel 9 in the Jewish, where you can see everything makes sense.
How do you know the Jewish years until the decade in which we are standing (Daniel 9) is correct? Very simply take out a bible & a calculator with a notepad sum up all the years and you will get to this number!
I will show you first the chronicle / timeline of the & gentile and Jewish kings and the events that took place (all have their source in the bible & in Josephus), then will understand it inside in the verse:
Year 3316 (from creation of the universe): Yehoukim becomes king over Judah
Year 3320 -The start of the 4th year of Yehoukim’s kingship - Nebuchadnezzer is king of Babel, (just passed through his 1st anniversary of becoming the king of Babel) has already conquered Assyrian and by the beginning of the his 2nd year conquers Jerusalem. - Daniel which is 13 years at the time is being exiled together with many other Jews into Babylon. -This year marks the start of the 70 years to the start of the Babylonian kingdom by the Chaldeans as prophesied by Jeremiah Chapter 25:11 & 12.
3323 -The 7th year of Yehoukim’s kingship (3 years under the reign of Nebuchadnezzer), in the end he revolts against Nebuchadnezzer and gains independence again for another 3 years -The 4th year of Nebuchadnezzer’s kingship
3326 -The 10th year of Yehoukim’s kingship (his kingship ends soon) -The 7h year of Nebuchadnezzer’s kingship
3327 -The 11th year of Yehoukim’s kingship in which he is killed by Nebuchadnezzer -The 8h year of Nebuchadnezzer’s kingship -Yehoyochin the son of Yehoukim is king for 3 months and 10 days and is then exiled to Babylon together with the best and the brights of the Jewish nation, which is also known as “Golus Yehoyochin” the exile of Yehoyochin (Esther chapter 2:6) -Tzidkiuyah the son of Yehoyochin is crowned king under the reign of Nebuchadnezzer (remains king for 11 years)
3338 -The 11th year of Tzidkiuyah’s kingship, he is killed -The 19th year of Nebuchadnezzer’s kingship -The 1st temple is destroyed by Nebuchadnezzer, the capital Jerusalem falls and the Jewish nation is exiled into Babylon. -This year marks the start of the 70 years to the start of the ruins of Jerusalem, as prophesied by Daniel Chapter 9:2
3364 -The 45th year of Nebuchadnezzer’s kingship, he dies and his son Evil-Merodach takes over.
3387 -The 23th year of Evil-Merodach’s kingship, he dies and his son Belshazzar takes over.
3389 -The 2nd year of Belshazzar’s kingship, he dies and in the same night, Darius & his son-in-law Cyrus conquer the Babylonian kingdom from the Chaldeans. -Darius the Mede becomes king (and remains king for 1 year) -Daniel prays to G-d and tries to understand the 70 years
3390 -Cyrus the Persian takes over the kingdom -Its now 52 years after the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple, Cyrus permits the Jews to start rebuild the temple. Fulfilling the prophecy of Jeremiah in chapter 29:10 remembering the Jews “For thus said G-d after seventy years are accomplished for Babylon, I will remember you, and perform my good word toward you, in causing you to return to this place.” -Cyrus doesn’t permit all the Jews to return to the land, the construction is started the foundation is rarely finished and the next king after Cyrus, Achasverosh (a.k.a. Xerxes) from the famous Purim story in Esther, puts the temple work on hold (Ezra chapter 4:6)
3408 -The 2nd year of Darius’s (son of the late Achasverosh & Esther) kingship, the Jews are permitted to return to Jerusalem with Ezra and man of the great assembly. -Rebuild of 2nd temple begins and stands for 420 years
3818 Titus makes a covenant with the Jews to let the sacrifice in the temple continue. (7 years).
3825 Titus breaks the covenant and the last 3 years of the 2nd temple the sacrificial system comes to a hold.
3828 9th of Av, 2nd temple is destroyed
5767 the Jewish year now (2007) [1938-1939 years of destruction of the 2nd temple] (according to your calendar Jesus was born 68-69 years before the destruction of the temple which would be in the year 3760-1, then his dead was when he was 30- 40 that would then be 3790-3800, approx. 30 years before the destruction of the 2nd temple.
Now lets go back and understand the events in Daniel 9, please keep in mind that their were 2 different 70 years pieces of prophecy to be fulfilled (as explained above).
One more criteria you need to understand is the Hebrew definitions of the words, the term “Shuviam” when speaking about single days means weeks, when speaking in years it means a plural of seven years (the same notion as in Leviticus Chapter 25:8) “Shivim” means the number 70 and “Shivu” means 7.
Verse 23 “At the beginning of the supplications a word went forth, and I am come to declare it, for thou are greatly beloved; therefore look into the word, and understand the vision.”
Verse 24 “Seventy plurals of seven years (Shuviam Shivim) were decreed upon your people and upon your holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sin, and to forgive iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal vision and prophecy, and to anoint the holy of holiest.”
Verse 24 Explained: This verse has 2 parts 1) is the decree of “Seventy plurals of seven years” which is essentially 70 x 7 = 490 years, which runs from 3338 (destruction of 1st temple) to 3828 (destruction of 2nd temple) (3828-3338=490) 2) From there and after it’s the long exile we are still in which all the words of the prophets come to be true and our sins & transgressions are being forgiven through our hardships of the exile.
Verse 25 “Know therefore and discern that from the going forth of the word to return and to build Jerusalem unto an anointed prince, shall be seven plurals of seven years (Shuviam Shivu). And for 62 plurals of seven years (U’Shuviam Shishim U’Shnayim) it shall return and be built, with broad streets and moat, but in troublous times.”
Verse 25 Explained: This verse also contains 2 parts 1) “unto an anointed prince, shall be seven plurals of seven years” which is 7 x7 = 49 years (plus 3 years which is missing from the verse since its not a whole week of seven years, the other 4 years from this week, will come be included in the 2nd part of the verse and is also not in the verse, since they are divided and not a one complete week) so you got here 52 years from the “going forth of the word” which is the destruction of the 1st temple in the year 3338+52 years = 3390 the year when Cyrus the anointed prince (Isaiah Chapter 45:1) gives permission to rebuilt the temple. 2) “And for 62 plurals of seven years” 62 x 7 = 434, plus 4 years (remember!) = 438 (which contains 420 temple years plus 18 from 3390-3408 the time it took from Cyrus’s decree until it was actually build, “it shall return and be built, with broad streets and moat, but in troublous times” the year.
Verse 26 “And after the 62 plurals of seven years shall an anointed be cut off, and be no more, and city and the sanctuary shall be destroyed by the people of a prince that shall come, and his end shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war, desolations are determined.”
Verse 26 Explained: “And after the 62 plurals of seven years” ( 62 x 7 = 434, plus 4 years (remember!) = 438) “shall an anointed be cut off, and be no more” the kingdom of the Israelites and the high-priest ceases to exist and is no longer a function of the Jewish nation. “and city and the sanctuary shall be destroyed by the people of a prince that shall come” the 2nd temple and the holy city of Jerusalem is destroyed by the army of Rome in the year 3828 “and his end shall be with a flood” the end of Titus and Rome shall be with a flood to destroy them. “And unto the end of the war, desolations are determined.” Jerusalem will lie in ruins, as it is today, until the last war of Gog Umagog.
Verse 27 “And he shall make a firm covenant for many, one week. And for half of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease. And upon the wing of detestable things, shall be those who caused appallment. And that until extermination and determination, be poured out upon those who caused appallment.”
Verse 27 Explained: This verse goes back into the 62 weeks giving some more details on that period “And he shall make a firm covenant for many, one week” that’s the covenant which Titus makes with the Jews in the year 3818, to let the sacrifice in the temple continue. He then breaks the covenant after 7 years in the year 3825 and the last 3 years of the 2nd temple the sacrificial system comes to a hold. “And for half of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease.” And then the nations will be left alone to control the world “And upon the wing of detestable things, shall be those who caused appallment.” on until the end of days when “extermination and determination, be poured out upon those who caused appallment”
Eli: This type of numerical language is an old English thing... see how they translate people's ages in Scripture. "And these are the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, a hundred threescore and fifteen years." (Genesis 25:7) The numbers add into one sum. It really just means 175 years.
Me: From here you can see how wrong this kind of interpretation is, when people doesn’t know their Hebrew, the verse in Genesis 25:7 says “And these are the days of the years of Abraham's life which he lived, hundred year, and 70 year and 5 years.” That’s the word for word interpretation I don’t see here any threescore or whatever.
Eli: My dear friend, you struck an extremely significant point when you said that yikureis is never used for righteous men but only unrighteous. That is the marvelous wisdom and mystery of God: that Messiah was before prophesied to be the sacrificial lamb to take away our sins;
He Himself was "wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." (Isaiah 53:5-6)
Yeshua Meshiach was the Righteous Anointed One, but He took our sins upon Him and went to the cross in our place.
Even the prophet Isaiah goes on to say: "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted." (Isaiah 53:4)
"...and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." (Isaiah 53:12)
Though He committed not one sin, He was yikureis for us who deserve it.
Me: Whatever you quote from the New Testament (1 Peter 2:24) I am even going to deal with, hope you understand why. The proof you have that Jesus died for your sins, is only from Isaiah 53, which does not talk about Jesus at all, I shall explain in a minute. So having no proof in the bible that Jesus died (there isn't even any evidence that he even exist, but that's beside the point) for someone else's sin and that Daniel 9 uses the same term which is used to described the death or cut off of people who sinned for G-d, who transgressed in the most horrific ways, that the same term should be used for a man that you call righteous kind of makes me wonder how righteous he truly was.
Why Isaiah 53 doesn't talk about Jesus: For a detailed interpretation please read: www.outreachjudaism.org/isaiah2.html or www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/faq/faq-ss.html
You can also listen to an audio lecture about Isaiah 53 at: outreachjudaism.org/mp3/Isaiah%2053%20Part%201.mp3 outreachjudaism.org/mp3/Isaiah%2053%20Part%202.mp3
Since this is not our discussion now, I would only mention a few points.
A. Look on the chapter in context with the chapters before it, this is one of the 4 servant songs starting at Isaiah 41 through 53. Where the prophet Isaiah talks about the suffering of the Jewish nation as a whole throughout the exiles that shall come forward, and he tells thee kings of the gentile nations, that they should look upon my servant Israel and see why he suffered that much.
Who is “my servant” from Isaiah 52 verse 13: “Behold, My servant shall prosper” where chapter 53 actually starts? The chapters before tell it:
Isaiah 41:8-9 But thou, Israel, art My servant, Jacob whom I have chosen.....and I said to you, "You are My servant"; I chose you and I did not despise you. Isaiah 44:1-2 Yet hear now, O Jacob My servant and Israel, whom I have chosen.....Fear not, My servant Jacob, and Yeshurun whom I have chosen. Isaiah 44:21 Remember these, O Jacob and Israel, for thou art My servant; I have formed thee; thou art My servant, O Israel, thou shalt not be forgotten of Me. Isaiah 45:4 For the sake of My servant Jacob, and Israel My chosen one, and I called to you by your name . . . . Isaiah 48:20 Leave Babylon......."The Lord has redeemed His servant Jacob." Isaiah 49:3 And said to me, thou art My servant, O Israel in whom I will be glorified
Isaiah 53 starts with the astonishment of the gentile kings on what G-d just told them who is servant is and what they did to him, the persecution, the oppression and so on.
B. Verse 3: “He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease” was Jesus a man of pain and disease during his life? Was he despised and forsaken? Didn’t he have disciples? The Jewish nation however oh yes they were and still continue to be!
C. Verse 10: “Yet it pleased G-d to crush him by disease, to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and that the purpose of G-d might prosper by his hand” This verse if it would be speaking about Jesus it would be extremely difficult to understand, here’s why
“he might see his seed” The Hebrew word Zarah (seed) can only refer to biological offspring when used in connection with a person (never metaphoric children, such as disciples, the Hebrew word that can refer to metaphoric children is Ben) did Jesus did not have any biological children?
“prolong his days” Yarich Yamim means a long life on the physical world (see Deuteronomy 17:20, Deuteronomy 25:15) If you want to say that it means the world to come, the eternal life it would have to say: Lchayai Olam (see Daniel 12:2) Jesus died when he was 30-40 years old, is this called Yarich Yamim (long life)?
Also who promised long life for whom? G-d for G-d (Jesus) and how exactly his he promised with long life if he is eternal, and where else in the bible do you find such a notion as a divine being, getting long life as a reward?
The Christians throughout the ages have indeed made sure that the words of the prophet Isaiah 53 should come to fruition, the millions of Jews they have killed and persecuted, Crusades, Pogroms. Blood libels, Holocaust and what not, when you talk about Jesus being a savior or giving life I really want to through up, all I see in this name is more killing more oppression, yes blood all over, Islam as bad as it gets hasn’t killed so many Jews as Christians under the flag of Jesus, the “peaceful” teachings/preaching’s of the church is responsible for that and not some street bums, give me a break!
Me: I wish you would not have said the following words and its not because I become disturbed by it, at all not, its just that this will drag us away from our debate on Daniel 9, however since you did mention it, I will reply “in short” to it.
Eli: “I pray that you would come to see that Yeshua is the Christ, the Anointed One, whom the prophets before Him prophesied of”
Me: I haven’t found the prophecy yet
Eli: “He died for you”
No one dies for anyone, everyone dies for his or her own sins, as the prophet Ezekiel Chapter 18 verse 20 says so eloquently: “The soul that sinned, it shall die; the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father with him, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son with him; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.” Very clear and precise if you sin you die, nobody bears any iniquity for someone else even a son for a father or vice versa.
Also see Deuteronomy Chapter 24 verse 16 “The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers; every man shall be put to death for his own sin.”
For me & my people (I don’t know about you) the words of the bible always remain holy and intact, it doesn’t change or decay over time, so the picture is clear as the sun in a blue sky.
Eli: “and you can be righteous before God through the blood of His atonement.”
So I can sin al day long? murder & rob people? Take away their wives? mutilate their children? and still called righteous because of Jesus’s blood? Where in the bible have you picked up this notion that someone is washed with someone else’s blood (at least through another human)?
Look further in Ezekiel Chapter 18 verse 24 & 26 “When the righteous man turned away from his righteousness, and committed iniquity, he shall die therefore; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. But when the righteous turned away from his righteousness, and committed iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? None of his righteous deeds that he hath done shall be remembered; for his trespass that he trespassed, and for his sin that he hath sinned, for them shall he die.“
“When the righteous man turned away from his righteousness, and committed iniquity, he shall die therefore; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.”
It doesn’t get any clearer then that: if you are righteous you live if not you die, no blood, no Jesus……
Eli: “But without the blood there is no remission of sins”
Again we need to look in Ezekiel Chapter 18 Verse 21 “But if the wicked turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all My statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.”
Verse 23 “Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? said the Lord G-d; and not rather that he should return from his ways, and live?”
Verse 27 “Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.”
Verse 28 “Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.”
Whoever saw any mention of the word blood in the verses above should raise their right hand? Anyone?
to be continued in next post...
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Post by starjsr on Jun 8, 2007 11:12:05 GMT -7
[Continues from previous post...] Psalms Chapter 51 verse 9: “Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.” “Hyssop” who ever heard such a thing? I thought you needed blood? Verse 18 & 19 “For Thou delight not in sacrifice, else would I give it; Thou hast no pleasure in burnt-offering. - The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and a contrite heart, O G-d, Thou wilt not despise.” G-d will not despise a broken heart; he does not delight in sacrifice? What’s going on over here, I thought you need blood? Isaiah Chapter 1 verse 11-20 “To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? said G-d; I am full of the burnt-offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he-goats.....When ye come to appear before Me, who had required this at your hand, to trample My courts?....Bring no more vain oblations; it is an offering of abomination unto Me..........I cannot endure iniquity along with the solemn assembly......And when you spread forth your hands, I will hide Mine eyes from you; yea, when you make many prayers, I will not hear; your hands are full of blood. (Me: did I just see the crucifixion of Jesus flash in front of my eyes)...Wash you, make you clean, put away the evil of your doings from before Mine eyes, cease to do evil.....Learn to do well; seek justice, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow....Come now, and let us reason together, said G-d; though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool...If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land....But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword; for the mouth of G-d had spoken.” You can’t see any blood in these verses even with a night vision microscope. Daniel Chapter 4 verse 24 “Wherefore, O king, let my counsel be acceptable unto thee, and break off thy sins by almsgiving” Almsgiving (contributions to aid the poor) to break off sins? What happen to Daniel? Didn’t he foresee that there would come a time when the doctrine wouldn’t allow such thinking? His he a prophet or what? Leviticus Chapter 5 11-13 “But if his means suffice not for two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, then he shall bring his offering for that wherein he had sinned, the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a sin-offering; he shall put no oil upon it, neither shall he put any frankincense thereon; for it is a sin-offering....And he shall bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take his handful of it as the memorial-part thereof, and make it smoke on the altar, upon the offerings of G-d made by fire; it is a sin-offering... And the priest shall make atonement for him as touching his sin that he hath sinned in any of these things, and he shall be forgiven; and the remnant shall be the priest's, as the meal-offering.” Flour for atonement? Oh yes is right there! Eli: According to both Old Testament and New Testament prophesy, a fourth temple is going to built in modern day Israel and an anti-Messiah will come and cause the sacrifices to cease, exalting himself in the temple as God. This is described repeatedly in Daniel, and further light is shed on him in the New Testament. So this is a future event, and one that is terrible as well. Even today, preparations are being made for the fourth temple to be built. Watch out!Me: You just broke the rule by mentioning the New Testament and I am confused, I just know what you call the old testament, so let's stick to that, now where exactly does the bible talk about a 4th temple? I only know about a 3rd temple which is lay out in its blueprint in Ezekiel 40-43 Eli: “Yes my friend, I am a lover of truth! But I have found the truth. As Yeshua our Saviour and Lord said, "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." God bless you, Joel.”You may be a lover of truth but you just broke the rule again, I asked you not to quote the new testament since I don’t believe in it, actually truth doesn’t make anybody free (ask any captive or hostage, if truth has helped them in their situation) if you are talking about the world to come? Then the only truth I have is the bible (which you might refer to as the “old testament” for me G-d word is never old) which doesn’t mention Jesus at all! The only verses in Daniel were I can maybe say that it talks about Jesus is: 1) Chapter 11 verse 14 “and the children of the violent among your people shall lift themselves up to establish a vision, but they shall fail” 2) The second coming of Jesus (in a whole different concept) Chapter 12 verse 2 “And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake…… and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence.” Jesus hasn’t come in 2000 nor will he come 3000 (take my word for it ) Although a smart guy like a you would be a great asset to the Jewish nation (we can always use more) you don’t need to convert to Judaism in order to gain salvation (unless you are from Jewish descendants you will definitely need to come back, actually you look Jewish to me? Are you?) you just have to keep the “7 Noahide laws” and you’re good for everlasting life in the world to come (1of them is Prohibition against idolatry, which includes the prohibition against believing in Jesus as G-d or part of the Trinity). May G-d shine upon you his knowledge, as the waters cover the sea. Wishing you the best! Joel
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Post by Eli Brayley on Jun 8, 2007 18:03:16 GMT -7
Dear Joel,
Thank you for your reply. It is already quite obvious that this discussion is going to go beyond Daniel 9. You've thrown a lot out at once, so please bear with my response. I'll address this in two posts, first dealing with Daniel 9, and then moving on to your various arguments against the atonement.
In your first statement you agree that Messiah will bring salvation. That's where I'm coming from. I'm speaking about Messiah, the Savior of the Jews and of the world. Passages that refer to Him don't always need to use the term "Messiah" in order to understand that God is speaking of Messiah. Isaiah 11 mentions the Branch of Jesse in verse 1, and the Root of Jesse in verse 10, which the Gentiles will seek. Yeshua is just that: He is both the Root and Branch of Jesse (meaning, He is both God and man... the Creator of Jesse and offspring of Jesse), and isn't it interesting that unto Jesus the once ignorant Gentiles have come and now worship Hashem, God. I don't believe even you can ignore this amazing fact, that through Jesus the Gentiles worship the One True God, Jehovah.
So even though the word "Messiah" is not used, it is talking about Him.
No, I truly believe 1 Samuel 2:10 is speaking of Yeshua H'Mushiach.
"The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them: the LORD shall judge the ends of the earth; and he shall give strength unto his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed."
When was the first part of this verse fulfilled? Even in Saul and David's time they conquered many of their adversaries, but they did not utterly defeat them for they continued to trouble Israel all throughout the history of the kings until finally Israel was totally overrun. No, this is speaking of the future when God puts an end to sin and unrighteous men, when he "thunders upon them from heaven" in the last day. Then will the Lord judge the ends of the earth, and shall give strength unto His King and exalt the horn of His anointed.
Psalm 110
Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. Psa 110:2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. Psa 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. Psa 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek. Psa 110:5 The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath. Psa 110:6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries. Psa 110:7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.
Do you see the connection with 1 Samuel 2:10? Psalm 110 is a fascinating. We have Jehovah saying unto Adonai, "Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies." This is speaking of Messiah at the right hand of God, waiting until the last day of wrath upon the earth. He is the "rod of thy strength out of Zion." David calls Him Adonai... how is it then, if Messiah is David's son, that he would call him his Lord? It is because Messiah is both the Root and the Branch of Jesse, both God and man, that David calls him Lord.
Even more revealing is verse 4: "The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek." Messiah is a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek. Now we know that Melchizedek was both a PRIEST AND A KING in the days of Abraham, bearing bread and wine, and Abraham gave him homage (Genesis 14:18-19); who serves as a foreshadow of Messiah. Thus in 1 Samuel 2:10, both the king and the anointed are one: Messiah.
You attempted to separate them, saying one was Saul and one was David, but you cannot do that. Was not Saul anointed king of Israel just as David was anointed? I see no distinction, and the context speaks of the day of wrath against the ungodly, when God will exalt Messiah, the King and Priest, who is Yeshua.
I'm saying that if you translate it as "anointed" it is still justified as speaking of Messiah because of the meaning of the Anointed One and because of the context of the verse.
Yes, I am familiar with this verse. However, it does not make any sense to apply Daniel 9:26 to Cyrus, because it says "(A) from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto (B) the Messiah the Prince..." Cyrus cannot fulfill both A and B, which, unless I am otherwise mistaken, you are trying to have him do. If Cyrus gave the command to restore Jerusalem there's no way he can be the Anointed Prince 483 years later. And if it was Artaxerxes who gave the commandment to restore Jerusalem (as I believe it was), he came after Cyrus so Cyrus still couldn't apply. The facts are simple: Cyrus gave the order to rebuild the temple, Artaxerxes gave Nehemiah the order to rebuild the streets and walls of Jerusalem, the fulfillment of Daniel 9:25.
Honestly, I do not believe the Scripture is trying to be complicated on this. It is talking about the same Anointed One, though the first mention or introduction of Him it gives the title "Prince", for clarification. Likewise, with the separation between seven weeks and threescore and two weeks, I don't believe it is meant to be complicated. 69 weeks is mentioned, which is 483 years, the only structure that fits this prophecy.
Haha, well, I'm not too good with the Jewish calendar either, although I would love to learn to use it.
Joel, I see some serious problems with your layout. There are a lot of assumptions you've put into the text:
1. You are basing your system of belief upon the date of the completion the temple.
Nowhere in Daniel 9 does it mention the time frame hinging upon the completion of the second temple, which you are asserting. The text says: "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem..." Know and understand... this is the sign Daniel readers much watch for:
The COMMAND to restore and rebuild JERUSALEM. If you attempt to distort the plain meaning of this you are adding or taking away from Scripture. It does not mention the completion of the temple being the mark, nor the command to rebuild the temple, but the command to rebuild Jerusalem.
"Neh 1:1 The words of Nehemiah the son of Hachaliah. And it came to pass in the month Chisleu, in the twentieth year, as I was in Shushan the palace, Neh 1:2 That Hanani, one of my brethren, came, he and certain men of Judah; and I asked them concerning the Jews that had escaped, which were left of the captivity, and concerning Jerusalem. Neh 1:3 And they said unto me, The remnant that are left of the captivity there in the province are in great affliction and reproach: the wall of Jerusalem also is broken down, and the gates thereof are burned with fire."
"Neh 2:1 And it came to pass in the month Nisan, in the twentieth year of Artaxerxes the king, that wine was before him: and I took up the wine, and gave it unto the king. Now I had not been formerly sad in his presence. Neh 2:2 Wherefore the king said unto me, Why is thy countenance sad, seeing thou art not sick? this is nothing else but sorrow of heart. Then I was very sore afraid, Neh 2:3 And said unto the king, Let the king live forever: why should not my countenance be sad, when the city, the place of my fathers' sepulchers, lieth waste, and the gates thereof are consumed with fire? Neh 2:4 Then the king said unto me, For what dost thou make request? So I prayed to the God of heaven. Neh 2:5 And I said unto the king, If it please the king, and if thy servant have found favor in thy sight, that thou wouldest send me unto Judah, unto the city of my fathers' sepulchers, that I may build it. Neh 2:6 And the king said unto me, (the queen also sitting by him,) For how long shall thy journey be? and when wilt thou return? So it pleased the king to send me; and I set him a time. Neh 2:7 Moreover I said unto the king, If it please the king, let letters be given me to the governors beyond the river, that they may convey me over till I come into Judah; Neh 2:8 And a letter unto Asaph the keeper of the king's forest, that he may give me timber to make beams for the gates of the palace which appertained to the house, and for the wall of the city, and for the house that I shall enter into. And the king granted me, according to the good hand of my God upon me."
This narrative of Nehemiah goes on to fulfill the latter part of Daniel 9:25, "the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times." They built the city under attack, with a tool in one hand and a sword in the other. Through much opposition the city was rebuilt.
From Artaxerxes' command unto Yeshua H'Mushiach was exactly 483 years. Then Yeshua was cut off, though not for Himself. Then the Romans "that shall come" destroyed Jerusalem afterwards, fulfilling the latter part of verse 26.
I cannot accept the interpretation of the completion of the temple being the sign when it is simply not in Daniel 9.
Nor can I accept your explanation of verse 24. The text is plain:
"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."
Seventy weeks are determined, meaning, it will take seventy weeks of years for all these things to be completed. The time is set for everything to be accomplished, no more, no less. Seventy weeks is determined to do all these things.
You are suggesting something entirely different, saying that the 490 years does not accomplish all these things. This is not Scriptural.
So the question is, have all these things been accomplished? The answer is eschatological.
Daniel 9 gives us the first space of time as 69 weeks, when Messiah will come and be cut off, but there remains one last week, the seventieth, that has not yet been fulfilled; it does not follow in consecutive chronological fashion. 69 weeks are accomplished, but not the seventieth. Where is it, and how do I know this?
Daniel 12 gives us the answer:
"Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars forever and ever. Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. Dan 12:5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river. Dan 12:6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and swore by him that liveth forever that it shall be for a time, times, and a half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. Dan 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? Dan 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days."
Daniel 12 shows that the "Time of Jacob's Trouble" (Jeremiah 30:7) is the final week of Daniel. Immediately we discover that this is an event which takes place at the end of days, not in the middle, not near the end... but at the end. It has not happened yet.
A certain period of time is described in two different ways: 1) Time, times and a half, which is three and a half years. 2) 1290 days, which is three and a half years. Three and a half years is half of seven years, or half of one week. This is absolutely talking about the seventieth week of Daniel 9.
Observe verse 11: "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days." All of a sudden the event of the sacrifices being taken away halfway through the week is identified at the end of the age, not 70 A.D. with Titus and the Romans. This verse explains that Daniel 9:27 is a future event not yet fulfilled. Daniel 9:27 is in fact the seventieth week of Daniel, which is the Time of Jacob's Trouble, the final seven years of the age before Messiah comes out of heaven.
Yeshua is Messiah. He died on the cross, rose from the dead three days later as prophesied (Psalm 16:10), and will come again at the end of the age to "judge among the heathen." "The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them." "The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath." (1 Samuel 2:10, Psalm 110)
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Post by Eli Brayley on Jun 8, 2007 18:34:22 GMT -7
I have to pick out a bit of hypocrisy here... Joel, you cited Josephus to back up your layout of Daniel 9, yet Josephus himself gives mention of Jesus:
"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, for he was a doer of wonders. He drew many after him. When Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day." (Antiquities 18:63-64, interpolations omitted)
Even so, the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, written so close to the actual events, gives the life of Jesus Christ the greatest historical verification of any other of antiquity. There is no comparison. Couple that with the life testimonies of the followers of Jesus, giving their life for seeing Him alive after His death, you have a powerful case for any scholar of ancient history.
Then what on earth was Moses doing telling the children of Israel to slaughter animals for the atonement of sin?!
No. A person who's sins are atoned for by the blood of Christ not only have them removed legally, but out of their heart. This is a fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:31-33:
"Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband unto them, saith the LORD: Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."
The mark of the New Covenant is a changed person, a person who no longer lives for himself and for sin, but for God. Don't ever be deceived by someone who claims to be a Christian but lives a wicked life. It is not possible. God was angry with those wicked unthankful people who partook of His covenant under Moses and broke it. How much more those who enter into covenant with Him through the blood of Yeshua H'Mushiach.
Therefore none of these villians were Christians, and you must not be blind to this... that so many true Christians in those times and today DID not and DO not do these things. I apologize for all those who sinned these evils in the name of Jesus, but they were not of Jesus. Jesus' own words: "For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." "By their fruits ye shall know them."
Hyssop was the instrument used to dip in the blood and sprinkle it on the people and items. Exodus 12:22.
God was sick of men and women who abused His grace. They went through the motions and traditions but their hearts were not after Him. "Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their heart far from me." (Isaiah 29:13)
Nebuchadnezzar was a Gentile, not entitled to follow the Law, as you have said, but finish the verse, because even Daniel didn't see much hope in it: "...if it may be a lengthening of thy tranquillity."
The flour was placed on the sacrifice, for poor people. But it was still placed on the altar with the blood. See "http://www.realmessiah.org/antiPart1-Skobac.htm"
I agree with you, let's stick on topic. Bless you Joel. May God open your eyes to see the truth of your own Savior and King. -Eli
PS. Which video was it that you saw?
PSS. Yes, I meant 3rd temple, not 4th; my mistake. Thank you.
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Post by starjsr on Jun 12, 2007 9:10:17 GMT -7
That's a classic one! Just go back and read my posts you will see, that whatever I have replied to, which wasn't in connection with Daniel 9 was only as a response to a line by you, you keep throwing in this verse & that verse and then you accuse me of rerouting the topic. Isaiah 11 doesn’t speak about Jesus at all (I shall explain) If someone is G-d how is he a man & vice versa (if doesn’t fit into my head) If Jesus is born from a virgin how is he an offspring from Jesse? If he doesn’t have a father then he doesn’t have a linage going up! And how exactly is Jesus a descendant of David are you using the line of genealogy in Matthew 1? Then he is part of the curse, since the days of Jeconiah. As prophecies by Jeremiah 22:30 Thus says the Lord: write this man down as childless, a man who shall not prosper in his days: for none of his descendants shall prosper, sitting on the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah. Joseph was in the line of this curse. Hence, if Jesus had been Joseph's son, He could not have sat on David's throne. If you are using the line of genealogy in Luke 3 then A) it only goes through Mary and not through the father (so its worthless) B) it goes through Nathan not through Solomon. I had to break this to you, but the once ignorant Gentiles, are still vastly ignorant and they to not worship Hashem, since Hashem said on Mount Sinai: “Thou shall have no other gods before me.” (Exodus 20:2) If Je-ho-vah is the “One” True God then how do you pray “through Jesus”? Why don’t you worship G-d himself as it says: to serve Him with “all your heart” and with all your soul (Deuteronomy 11:13) (in other words why the middle-man? Do you think G-d can’t handle it himself?) Now don’t give me the whole Trinity crap since it doesn’t appear in YOUR New Testament at all! (it was invented approx. 300 years after the new testament) And even Jesus himself distant himself from this notion, as you can see in Mark 10:17-18 “And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, why call thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God.” Don’t you see that the nations shall seek G-d in “THAT DAY”, has that day come or not? According to you “that day” has already come since the “once ignorant Gentiles” already worship G-d through Jesus” then what about the other stuff that needs to happen on “that day” has it happened yet? If you want to understand Isaiah 11, you have to look at the context, Isaiah is here in the middle of a conversation as indicated by the letter “ VOV” ‘V’yutzu Chotar “And” it shall go forth, so what’s the beginning of the conversation? And to whom is he talking to? one might wonder. The answer is that the conversation goes from the middle of chapter 7 through 12, were Isaiah is talking to Achaz the father of Chezekiah who was a direct descendant of King David through Solomon, and was a possible candidate for being the Messiah, if the world would have been ready, yet since the world wasn’t ready it didn’t happen and we are still waiting for the Messiah to come, maybe it will be Chezekiah himself (who is entitled to a 2nd coming as much as Jesus at least) or another guy who is a Davidic descendant. Isaiah 11:2 “And the spirit of G-d shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of G-d.” How in the world those G-d fear G-d? Which off the following has happened? (Verse 6-9) Has the wolf dwelled with the lamb? has the leopard lied down with the kid or the calf and the young lion fatling been together and a little child leading them? did the cow and the bear feed together? their young ones lied down together? Did the lion eat straw like the ox? Has the sucking child played on the hole of the asp? Has the weaned child put his hand on the basilisk's den? Is no one hurting or destroying the holy mountain? (There’s construction on the site right now as we speak, see: www.onejerusalem.org/templeMount.asp ) Is the earth full of the knowledge of G-d, as the waters cover the sea. (Go to India or Africa see how many pagan Gods they still have? Or why are the Christians and the missionaries like you spending millions of dollars to convert Jews all over the world if they all are “full of knowledge” of G-d? What about the millions of atheists throughout North America & Europe? I have shown you why this doesn’t make sense through the words in the Hebrew language, you haven’t yet explained in otherwise. Actually I don’t see any connection at all and you haven’t explained why they are connected. This is just what’s called “classic missionary” ……… throwing in your pitch when you can’t answer a question you just throw in another challenge, no, why don’t you stick to the point and answer it, I know you have approx. another 6-7 cards which you have ready in your pocket to throw at me when you get stuck with a challenging question, so no surprise here. . We have Jehovah saying unto Adonai, "Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies." This is speaking of Messiah at the right hand of God, waiting until the last day of wrath upon the earth. He is the "rod of thy strength out of Zion." David calls Him Adonai... how is it then, if Messiah is David's son, that he would call him his Lord? It is because Messiah is both the Root and the Branch of Jesse, both God and man, that David calls him Lord. Isn’t it cleat that you don’t understand Hebrew, and isn’t it clear that you even ignore your own history. Matthew 22:41-46 Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them this question: What do you think of the Messiah? Whose son is he?’ They said to him, ‘The son of David.’ He said to them, ‘How is it then that David by the Spirit calls him Lord, saying, The Lord said to my Lord,‘Sit at my right hand,until I put your enemies under your feet’? If David thus calls him Lord, how can he be his son?’ No one was able to give him an answer, nor from that day did anyone dare to ask him any more questions. Well Jesus clearly believed that this verse isn’t speaking about him, then how do you understand it better? Adonai means “My Master” Jesus wasn’t yet alive so how can David call him “My Master” and even if you say that he was already G-d at that point how did David join the conversation, who told him what the two G-d heads spoke between themselves? And why did the other G-d need all this nonsense from the other G-d that he will protect him deliver his enemies etc. couldn’t he take care of that himself? FOR HEAVEN’S SAKE HE IS GOD!!! The whole chapter talks about Abraham (Who is referred to as Adonai in Genesis Chapter 23) and his war with the 4 kings in Genesis Chapter 14 as you yourself understood it in verse 4. (According to you what connection those Malchi Tzadek have with the Messiah? (I didn’t see that word in the chapter as well) Come on are you that ignorant and/or stupid? (Wake up & smell the coffee) haven’t I explained to you that Saul was king in Samuel’s life whereas David was only anointed by him but didn’t see him on the thrown. Then why did you make the effort into translating it into “the Messiah” why don’t you say in the first place “the anointed” BTW I am still waiting to here from where you took the word “THE” messiah or “THE” anointed? What do you mean “IF CYRUS GAVE…..” for heaven’s sake read Ezra Chapter 1 its all to clearly written there. You haven’t explained the Hebrew translation of the word in Daniel 9: “Shuviam” = a plural of seven “Shivim” = 70 “Shivu” = 7 According to your poor understanding of Hebrew it means (please fill in the blanks: “Shuviam” = ________ “Shivim” = _________ “Shivu” = _________ If “anointed prince doesn’t mean Cyrus then you will need to explain a few things A) Unto whom did G-d speak when he said (Isaiah 45:1) “thus said G-d to his anointed, to Cyrus” who this that Cyrus when did G-d speak him, what’s going on? B) Isaiah 45:13 “I have roused him up in victory, and I make level all his ways; he shall build My city, and he shall let Mine exiles go free, not for price nor reward, said G-d of hosts.” So G-d tells Cyrus that he should build the city, who was that Cyrus and when was the city build? C) Ezra 1:2 “Thus said Cyrus king of Persia: All the kingdoms of the earth has G-d, the God of heaven, given me; and He had charged me to build Him a house in Jerusalem, which is in Judah.” When did G-d speak to him? Was he a prophet? Of course he was refereeing to what G-d said to him/about him through Isaiah 45, but according to you this doesn’t make much sense? Or does it? Josephus even tells the story that Cyrus got a letter with the above prophecy written which made him so excited to write the letter which he wrote, otherwise why would he even care about the temple and Jerusalem, we don’t find in the bible anybody requesting it from him. Here’s the chronology: In the year 3390 Cyrus permits in a written letter (which wasn’t available until the 2nd year of (Darius) Artaxerxes (Ezra 6:1-4)) the Jews to return to the land and rebuild the temple. Zerubbabel and his people start to rebuild the temple and the city but then the neighbors stopped it “And in the reign of Ahasuerus, in the beginning of his reign, wrote they an accusation against the inhabitants of Judah and Jerusalem”(Ezra 4:6). The rebuild is stopped for 18 years until 3408 the second year of Darius’s (Artaxerxes) kingdom when he permits to continue with the rebuilt “Then ceased the work of the house of God which is at Jerusalem; and it ceased unto the second year of the reign of Darius king of Persia” ”(Ezra 4:24). And this house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king. ”(Ezra 6:15). After the temple was finished only then in the 7th year of Darius the king (year 3413) did Ezra come up to Jerusalem (as detailed in Ezra Chapter 7) Nehemiah came up in the year 3426 the 2oth year Darius the king (as detailed in Nehemiah) to rebuilt the streets and the moat. No the bible is not complicated about this, its just different, first it talks about an anointed prince and in the second part it talks about someone who is not a prince but an anointed. There’s way too much conspiracy around this, that I am not going to touch it right now (don’t have that much time, sorry) See here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_JesusWhy are you all of a sudden ignoring Isaiah 53? What happened? First of all we are talking about animals not about humans, so you cannot get your own conclusion to compare that to human, the same as eating an animal is permissible whereas eating a human simply is not. Actually Isaiah 1: 11-20 is answering your question, G-d doesn’t want the blood or the meat of the animal, they all belong to him and he can have as much as he wish, he doesn’t need those little human’s to bring him what he already has, it’s the deeper thought that counts, it’s the repentance that comes along with the killing of the animal, a person should understand that same thing would have happened to him if he would not repent. Why are you ignoring Ezekiel Chapter 18:20 Deuteronomy 24:16? This doesn’t get any stupider, if lets say a person becomes a Jesus believer and afterwards kills a person, is he not responsible for it? I mean he is atoned through the blood of Jesus and is heart is really there, its just that a had a bad minute, why would he now be accountable for it? OH OH yes they were real real Christians in their hearts of hearts, they came in the name of Jesus their savior, I know you are ashamed of this and the good news is you don’t have to feel bad and I don’t need your apology at all, but that’s history! go back get yourself a life and study history, or you can join the bandwagon of holocaust deniers. In Exodus 12:22 yes but in Psalms 51: 9 no! (There is no mention of dipping in blood here, so don’t assume that they are the same, unless you see it in the verses) don’t play around with the living word of G-d! What about Ezekiel Chapter 18:21/23/27/28? What about Psalms 51:18- 19? So what his it what you need Heart or Blood? NO! the word is ”Ishei” the word “Ish” means fire the word ”Ishei” means flames, that said the flour sacrifice was thrown upon the “flames” of G-d, and you need to study your own bible before you go out preaching, don’t you know that blood was never sprayed into the fire? Come on every Jewish child can tell you that it was sprayed either against the curtain or on the corners of the alter, the rest of the blood (from the animal sacrifices) was poured onto the foundation of the alter, never on the fire, only the meat/fat/bones would go there, so your argument bursts like a bubble. And besides did the poor man get a sacrifice with someone else’s blood from a previous sacrifice? How does these two interact together? And then the question is why did he have to bring flour? Why couldn’t he give some money to the rich man and take part in his animal? I mean if the main theme of the day is blood why use flour? And where in the world do you see in the bible that human blood should be used for sacrifice, you only see it the other way around that G-d despises such stuff, as we see for example in Psalms 106:37-40 Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto demons, And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan and the land was polluted with blood. Thus were they defiled with their works, and went astray in their doings. Therefore was the wrath of G-d kindled against His people, and He abhorred His inheritance. If you approach this verses with an open mind we can continue our debate, but if your mind is locked and shut into Jesus mode, then there’s no point we should continue, obviously you have been preached with the Jesus stuff ever since and its hard for you to think otherwise, I mean I try to see Jesus in the verses but it doesn’t work for me, but wouldn’t you give it a chance, to understand the verses with people & places that is mentioned in the bible, isn’t this more fare to try to understand it from this point of view, I mean after all Jesus isn’t in the bible at all but Cyrus, Daniel, Ezra, Darius, Jeremiah, Hezekiah, David, Moses, Abraham are? Doesn’t it ring a bell? If you get cornered and in your hearts of hearts you see that you were wrong, would you admit that you were wrong or not? (I need an answer to this question please) And the biggest question I have is if Jesus is the ultimate goal of all mankind, why didn’t G-d mentioned his name in the bible even once? Why was that part-head of the G-d soooooo selfish? I mean OK he is not featured (he really should) but a mention, a something? Nothing? The only verses where you can squeeze in Jesus are verses which can be debated. THINK ABOUT IT!!!! P.S. The video is here: video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3387238221073800025
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Post by Eli Brayley on Jun 13, 2007 20:28:50 GMT -7
Haha, okay, you win. You'll have to understand that as a Christian, it's very hard not to tell other people about the good news in Jesus! Yes, but Scripture is not silent about this, and though it is difficult to contemplate how the infinite Godhead could become a man, it is true, and it is Scriptural: "For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele- joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom (Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace)." (Isaiah 9:6) "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." (Isaiah 7:14) This is taken from www.JewishGen.org/DNA:"Genealogical DNA testing can trace your patrilineal ancestors (father's father's father's ... father) by testing the Y chromosome and your matrilineal ancestors (mother's mother's mother's ... mother) by testing mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA). The Y chromosome is passed from father to son, so only men can be tested for it. mtDNA is passed from a mother to all her children, so both men and women can be tested for it. However, men do not pass their mtDNA down to their children, so the only continuous path for mtDNA is through the direct maternal line." It is highly significant that Jesus was born of a virgin, as Isaiah prophesied. For one, being born of Mary preserves the lineage down from David, Abraham and Adam. But on the other hand, the fact that Jesus was NOT born of natural causes, having no male involved, ensured that He was not a carrier of the Y chromosome of Adam; and the source of blood is only carried over by the male... that means that Jesus' blood was not Adam's blood... then who's blood did He have? I'll let you think about that. The significance of Yeshua HaMushiach shedding His sinless blood on the cross is infinite. He was not a carrier of Adam's corrupted blood, though He still maintained the matrilinear line of David, Abraham and Adam. Luke's record in chapter 3 is Mary's genealogy and is the genealogy of Christ. Yes, Messiah came through Nathan and not Solomon. Though Joseph, His supposed father, was a direct descendant of Solomon and Jeconiah (Matthew 1:6). On the contrary, men all around the world are turning AWAY from idols and submitting their lives unto the Living God through Messiah. Joel, you are speaking rashly and ignorantly. Have you forgot the entire priestly system God gave Israel through Moses? Why don't you apply your hasty words to that system: "Why don't you worship God himself... why should you have to have a "middle-man"? Why should I have to go through priests... and why can't I go into the holy of holies? Come on, get out this mediator nonsense out of my way!" Do you see how ridiculous this is? God is GOD! How can sinful man approach Him without a mediator? Jesus Christ is our Great High Priest who brings us to God through the atoning sacrifice of His blood (Psalm 110:4, Hebrews 4:14, 7:25, 9:11-12). Without this intercessory work of the High Priest, you cannot approach God. Ever since the 2nd temple was destroyed, Jews who have rejected Jesus Christ have had no way to God. Joel, you must realize the great seriousness of abandoning Messiah... by abandoning Messiah Yeshua, God abandons you. You're sins are not forgiven, and you are not in touch with God. I know this is a scary thought, but I pray that the Gentiles who have come to God through Messiah and now have a relationship with Him that you do not; I pray that through this you would be "provoked to jealousy" to return to your God in humility and truth. Hear the dying words of Moses, my dear friend: "Deu 32:15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation. Deu 32:16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger. Deu 32:17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not. Deu 32:18 Of the Rock that begot thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee. Deu 32:19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters. Deu 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith. Deu 32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation."Oh, that you would see! Israel today is not near God at all! On the contrary they are far, far away, living in great sin and self-dependence. They have forgotten God, and the words of Moses are being fulfilled. Israel today is not a nation "whose God is the Lord." Only until the Jewish people turn back and embrace Yeshua whom they persecuted will they ever come back to God. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." (Matthew 23:37) Only when Israel turns back to God through Messiah will the Kingdom blessings be established in the earth. Consider Joseph. The eleven brothers persecuted him, sold him to the Gentiles, but he became a great leader in Egypt and brought salvation to the whole earth during the famine. The picture is of Yeshua. Israel rejected their own brother, sold him into the hands of the Gentiles, but He has come back from the dead and brought salvation to the world. Now you do not recognize Him, but when you see Him again face to face, and are no more proud and hostile towards Him, but in humility your hearts break at your sins, then God shall "pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son." (Zechariah 12:10)
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Post by starjsr on Jun 15, 2007 8:12:08 GMT -7
I was actually waiting for this one, the story in Isaiah 7 goes like this Rezin the king of Aram, and Pekah the son of Remaliah come to wage war on Jerusalem and the Ahaz the king of Juda is very much afraid of this war, so G-d sents Isaiah and commands him with a prophecy to reach out and clam down Ahaz, G-d says Ahaz to request a sign that everything will be ok (G-d knows Ahaz well and understands that his kind of shaky believe in G-d needs a sign) Ahaz tries to pose himself as very righteous and says no I am not going to try Hashem, so G-d says don't worry my dear Ahaz its not so hard for me and I will give you a sign anyway. Therefore G-d he himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel. (Isaiah 7:14)(the young wife of Ahaz will bear a son Hezikaah and she will call his name Immanuel) Curd and honey shall he eat, when he know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.
Yea, before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land whose two kings thou hast a horror of shall be forsaken.(before Hezikkah grow up those 2 kings gave up their plans of conquering Jerusalem as we see in Kings 2 16:5 Then Rezin king of Aram and Pekah son of Remaliah king of Israel came up to Jerusalem to war; and they besieged Ahaz, but could not overcome him.) You have to read thing into its context otherwise you cannot understand it, also you have to understand Hebrew (and I am not your Hebrew teacher, so please get a life and start learning the Hebrew language, there are many classes & courses available, do a Google search), same thing goes for the next verse For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi-ad-sar-shalom; (Isaiah 9:6)Here are some quick indications why you are dead wrong saying that these verses speak about Jesus: 1) If someone is born from the womb of a virgin is this a sign? (I mean the virgin part, is it something that people can see, like a road "sign"?, or is it a "hidden" fact?) 2) Behold a young woman, are you kidding when you translate the word Almah into virgin, oh my......... The word HaAlmah in Exodus 8:2 King James Version= maid American Standard Version= maiden Bible in Basic English= girl Darby's English Translation= damsel Douay Rheims Bible= maid Noah Webster Bible= maid World English Bible= maiden Young's Literal Translation= virgin How many translate it into Virgin: ONLY ONE! The word HaAlmah in Genesis 24:43 King James Version= virgin American Standard Version= maiden Bible in Basic English= girl Darby's English Translation= damsel Douay Rheims Bible= virgin Noah Webster Bible= virgin World English Bible= maiden Young's Literal Translation= virgin How many translate it into Virgin: 4 (better now, but what happen Mr. King James, Douay Rheims and Noah Webster, what happened in Exodus 8:2) Now comes the real cry out loud verse: Proverbs 30:19 BaAlmah King James Version= maid American Standard Version= maiden Bible in Basic English= girl Darby's English Translation= maid Douay Rheims Bible= youth Noah Webster Bible= maid World English Bible= maiden Young's Literal Translation= youth How many translate it into Virgin: ZERO: The word virgin actually is Besulah 2 Samuel 13:2 King 1:2 Job 1:1 (4 yea virigin vs 3 no) Esther 2:3 Isaiah 62:5 Deuteronomy 22:23 + many more... What does: King James Version, American Standard Version, Bible in Basic English, Darby's English Translation, Douay Rheims Bible, Noah Webster Bible, World English Bible, Young's Literal Translation translate it into= Virgin 3) Should Ahaz wait I don't know exactly, some 400 years until Jesus is born so will have a sign that something (which happened within a few short years) which he needs NOW will happen?!?!?!?! (Try to figure this one, but wrap your head first in duct tape) 4) "She shall call his name Immanuel" are there any record of Mary calling Jesus Immanuel? 5) "The government is upon his shoulder" Which governor exactly was Jesus from New York or Hong Kong? 6) What wonderful ideas did Jesus produce (the atom? DNA?) What peace did he bring to the earth in his life? How strong was he? (he couldn't save himself alone from the cross and you thing of him as strong? that's not my kind of superman) This theology of talking directly to Hashem is very deeply rooted in the core of the Jewish religion (based on the Torah-Bible) and is kind of hard to explain to an ignorant Christian, we make every day at least 100 blessings and always use the words “Blessed Are You Hashem” we never go in circled or talk to other people/angles, on the contrary its forbidden to make a prayer/request from a angel or holy person, we can only ask them to they should pray to Hashem for us, since the prayer of a righteous person is accepted quicker then a not so righteous individual, but if your heart is really with Hashem, he listens very closely, here are a few verses: G-d is near unto all that call upon Him, to all that call upon Him in truth. He will fulfil the desire of them that fear Him; He also will hear their cry, and will save them. (Psalms 145:-18-19) what more convincing to you need “This poor man cried, and G-d heard, and saved him out of all his troubles.“ (Psalms 34:-7)“ "G-d is near unto those who have a broken heart, and those who are of a contrite spirit he saves” (Idib:19)“Seek G-d while He may be found, call upon Him while He is near” (Isaiah 55:6) “But know that G-d had set apart the godly man as His own; G-d will hear when I call unto Him.“ (Psalms 4:4)“As for me, I will call upon God; and G-d shall save me. Evening, and morning, and at noon, will I complain, and moan; and He hath heard my voice.” (Ibid 55:17-18) (Even though King David sinned G-d still listened to his prayer) “When he is judged, let him go forth condemned; and let his prayer be turned into sin.” (Ibid 109:7) king David had to pray to G-d that he should not accept the prayer of the wicked man, otherwise G-d might have accepted it even if the person is wicked “I cried unto Him with my mouth, and He was extolled with my tongue. If I had regarded iniquity in my heart, G-d would not hear. But verily God had heard; He hath attended to the voice of my prayer.”: (Ibid 66:17-19) Even if G-d sees your heart as sinful he will ignore it and listen to your prayers, VERY POWERFUL VERSES, AIN’T IT?"and the children of Israel cried out to G-d" (Exodus 14:11) not to the middle man "and you shall be unto Me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel" (Exodus 19:6) all of Israel are preists "...and to serve Him with all your heart and with all your soul" (Deuteronomy 11:13) i don't see anyone in between G-d and the Jew. You are the children of the lord your G-d (Deuteronomy 14:1) (have you ever seen children needing a middle man when talking to their father) I am glad you brought this up, since its the best prophecy about the evils of Jesus and his followers, who are turning away from G-d, oh soooooo sweet that word of G-d is! Deuteronomy 32:9 For the portion of G-d is His people, Jacob the lot of His inheritance. (not the gentiles) 32:12 G-d alone did lead him, and there was no strange god with Him. (no strange Jesus nonsense) 32:17 They sacrificed unto demons, no-gods, gods that they knew not, new gods that came up of late (2000 years ago, Jesus for example), which your fathers dreaded not. 32:18 And G-d saw, and spurned, because of the provoking of His sons and His daughters. (Jesus who his still Jewish) 32:21 They have roused Me to jealousy with a no-god (a kind of "God" that's manifested in the flesh); they have provoked Me with their vanities; and I will rouse them to jealousy with a no-people (gentiles who are not the people of G-d) I will provoke them with a vile nation. 32:23 I will heap evils upon them; I will spend Mine arrows upon them32:25 without shall the sword bereave, and in the chambers terror; slaying both young man and virgin (HO HO Jesus the young man and his mother the virgin), the suckling with the man of gray hairs. 32:35 Vengeance is Mine, and recompense, against the time when their foot shall slip; for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that are to come upon them shall make haste. 32:36 For G-d will judge His people, and repent Himself for His servants (remember Isaiah 53 who the real servant is) when He see that their stay is gone, and there is none remaining, shut up or left at large32:37 And it is said: Where are their gods, the rock in whom they trusted (Surprise!.... no second coming!) 32:38 who did eat the fat of their sacrifices, and drank the wine of their drink-offering? let him rise up and help you, let him be your protection. (Hello Jesus can you hear me.....? no are you sleeping? wake up) 32:39 See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god with Me (no godhead, no trinity, no nothing) I kill, and I make alive; I have wounded, and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of My hand. 32:40 for I lift up my hand to heaven, and say: As I live for ever, (ya see G-d is not the kind of G-d that dies and makes second comings or whatever) 32:43 Sing aloud, O ye nations, of His people; for He doth avenge the blood of His servants (again Isaiah 53) and do render vengeance to His adversaries, and do make expiation for the land of His people. (Hello Torah Judaism & Israel, bye bye Jesus & Christianity) I hope you are deeply offended by these verses, its not me saying it after all, its the holy living word of G-d! Jesus was already here and wolf did NOT dwell with the lamb and so on.... so the rest what you say is pure non-sense. The verse: And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitant of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look upon Me because of the one that they have thrust him through, and they shall mourn over him, as one mourns for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born. (Zechariah 12:10)***Its talking about the Jewish Messiah the son of Yosef who will be killed at the end of days*** Again look on the context and know your Hebrew! Why this isn't talking about Jesus: 1) They shall look upon "me" and shall mourn for "him" is it him or me? 2) Why is your book John 19:37 changing this to they shall look upon " HIM"? (or the one) what was wrong with ME? and who is playing with the word of G-d? 3) Take this quick test: On the same day when Jesus was pierced did: A)-All the nations of the earth gather together against Jerusalem (Zechariah 12:3) ? B)-All horses been smite with bewilderment, and his rider with madness (Zechariah 12:4) ? C)-All horses of the nations been smite with blindness (Zechariah 12:4)? D)-G-d defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that stumbleth among them (Zechariah 12:8)? E)-The house of David become as a godlike being, as the angel of G-d before them (Zechariah 12:8) ? F)-G-d pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, a spirit of grace and of supplication (Zechariah 12:10)? G)-All of the above H) None of the above Answer: H 4) In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.(Zechariah 12:11) was the mourning over Jesus when he was killed the same type of morning as in the valley of Megiddon? Well you might ask what morning look in 2 Chronicles 35:22-25 when king Josiah was killed in the valley of Megiddon and the whole Jewish nation mourned after him "And all Judah and Jerusalem mourned for Josiah" "And Jeremiah lamented for Josiah" "and all the singing men and singing women spoke of Josiah in their lamentations" did any similar mourning occur onto Jesus, No! You still have about 2-3 cards left to throw on the table, but since !you are leaving my questions unanswered!, this debate is not going anywhere, I will have to leave the kitchen and its not because I can't stand the heat, but rather there is noting cooking on the stove, I fill you up a pot, and instead of cooking it you just present me with another empty pot (I only like Intelligent dialogues not monologues and absolute non-sense back & forth verse throwing doesn't appeal to me. Its all way too clear who is right and its time you put your thinking cap on my friend! Ultimately it will come to pass that the Jew was right alll along as it says in Zechariah Chapter 8 Verse 23: "Thus said G-d of hosts: In those days, it shall come to pass that they shall take hold, ten men out of all the languages of the nations, and they shall take hold in the shirt corner of the person who is a Jew, saying: Let us go along with you, for we have heard, God is with you."...and He chose their seed after them, even you, above all peoples, as it is this day. (Deuteronomy 10:15) For thou art a holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God had chosen thee to be His own treasure, out of all peoples that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set His love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people--for ye were the fewest of all peoples (Deuteronomy 7:7-8) Oh that they had such a heart as this always, to fear Me, and keep all My commandments, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever! (Deuteronomy 5:25) Dainel 9 is not talking about Jesus, nor does any verse in the bible, he is not a G-d nor the Messiah, neither of any significance whatsoever, Christianity is wrong, Judaism is right and the One & Only G-d of the heavens & Earth is the ruler ever since and forever everlasting eternity! I am a Kohen (direct male descendant of Aaron) from the biblical tribe of Levi (there's my physical connection to the bible) and I do my best at keeping the commandments (there's my spiritual connection to the bible), as the last prophet Malachi says in the last words of the living word of G-d: "Remember the law of Moses My servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, even statutes and ordinances Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the day of G-d the great and fearful" (Malachi 3:22-23) when "The Messiah" will come and the 3rd temple will be rebuild in Jerusalem, I will be proudly serving in the temple and if you ever decide to bring a sacrifice repenting for G-d for not believing in him, I will be there to help you out in any way possible, just ask for me! Until then have a wonderful day and re-think your theology!
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Post by Eli Brayley on Jun 15, 2007 11:47:42 GMT -7
Well, I was planning on responding to the remainder of your second to last post, for time didn't allow me to do so right away, but now I'm not so sure. Joel, all arguments aside, you have displayed more self-righteousness and arrogance than I have seen in a long time and that in itself speaks volumes in this discussion. I'm not sure how old you are, but you haven't yet learned that to be a man of God isn't about how much Scripture you can quote and how much knowledge you know (which only puffs up ones pride), but the deep things of God are found in humility, mercy, patience, kindness, goodness and self-control; all of which you have not shown. I think before you ever go about debating the Scriptures with people, you ought to first get to know God and apply your heart to His ways. God resists the proud but He gives grace to the humble.
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Post by runner4jesus on Jul 12, 2007 19:00:03 GMT -7
Hope you don't mind me interjecting; the simplicity of Christ is so wonderful as we receive by simple childlike faith. Jesus loved that in a child. This sums up what God requires of us as his child in Micah 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
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