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Post by 4him on Nov 6, 2009 22:09:44 GMT -7
Hi Guys,
I've been thinking recently about the teaching of the 'Baptism in the Holy Spirit'. As many of you likely know, this is the teaching that after salvation, there is another blessing that a Christian may experience (often called the 'second blessing') and this is what is referred to as being Baptized in the Spirit.
For those of you who believe in it, what would you say is the biblical basis for believing in it ?
Also, if God does intend Christians to experience this second blessing, what is the purpose or purposes He intends for it? A closely related question might be, what is the evidence of having received this gift ?
Your thoughts are appreciated !
In Jesus, John
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Post by Runner For Jesus on Nov 8, 2009 15:49:03 GMT -7
Hi! The best way is to go by what the Word of God teaches. God gives us the baptism so we will have power to overcome. Acts 2:38-41
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Post by 4him on Nov 11, 2009 4:56:31 GMT -7
Hi Margie,
Thanks for what you've shared here :-) The first verse from this passage says, "And Peter said to them, 'Repent and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit".
As I look at this verse I am wondering, does this verse teach that the 'gift of the Holy Spirit' is a gift that all believers receive at the point of salvation, or does it leave things open to the idea that this may be an experience that is subsequent to salvation ?
Another verse that is often used to support the belief that the 'Baptism in the Holy Spirit' is an experience that is subsequent to salvation, is found in Acts 19:1-6.
From this passage, it seems like verse 2 is the one most commonly used to suggest that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit was given to people who were already believers in Christ : "He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”"
1 It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2 He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4 Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.
Now the question that springs to mind here is, were these people Christians already at the point where they 'received the Holy Spirit ?' From my understanding they were. Any other thoughts on this ?
I agree that if the 'baptism in the Holy Spirit' is a separate gift from salvation then 'the power to overcome' would be an integral part of what it is all about. When we see Peter standing up on the day of Pentecost to deliver his famous sermon, he is a vastly different man from what he was when he timidly denied that he even knew Christ.
So if this were the case, would you say that the evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit would mainly be that the person who has received it demonstrates the 'power to overcome' in his or life ?
I know that the position taught in Charismatic churches is that the 'evidence' of being baptized in the Holy Spirit is that a person speaks in tongues. They base this on the fact that in most every case where a person in the New Testament was baptized in the Holy Spirit, this is accompanied by this person speaking in tongues.
But if this is the case, what would we say to people like R.A. Torrey who believed strongly in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, but did not connect it with speaking in tongues ?
In Torrey's writings(below) about the evangelist D.L. Moody, he shares a story about how Moody's ministry was transformed after being baptized in the Holy Spirit. Of course this is merely the sharing of someone's experience, and if the position that 'the baptism is a subsequent gift' is true, then ultimately it would need to be supported by the Scriptures.
Just wanted to throw a few more ideas out. Honestly, I'm still sifting through what I believe about this teaching on the Holy Spirit, and have been for some time. (One thing that makes me wonder about how it all works, it that there have been some Christians over the years who have evidenced great power to overcome and great power in witnessing for Christ, who have as far as I know, have not believed in this teaching, nor have they ever specifically sought for this gift)
The only other thing I can relate about it on a personal level is what happened to me when I was about 12 years old. My mom and sister and I had been praying for someone to be healed in our home, when this man laid his hands on our heads. At this point, my sister and I started to pray in tongues (although we had never heard of such a thing before) and according to my mom our faces were filled with joy when this happened. My mom tells me that prior to this, she had prayed, "Lord, please send someone to Baptize my children with the Holy Spirit". I am sharing this not to promote tongues with respect to this gift. This is an experience that happened to me, however there are many testimonies of receiving the Holy Spirit that do not involve tongues.
Any other thoughts are much appreciated.
In Jesus, John
Torrey's story about Moody :
But there were two humble Free Methodist women who used to come over to his meetings in the Y.M.C.A. One was "Auntie Cook" and the other, Mrs. Snow. (I think her name was not Snow at that time.) These two women would come to Mr. Moody at the close of his meetings and say: "We are praying for you." Finally, Mr. Moody became somewhat nettled and said to them one night: "Why are you praying for me? Why don't you pray for the unsaved?" They replied: "We are praying that you may get the power." Mr. Moody did not know what that meant, but he got to thinking about it, and then went to these women and said: "I wish you would tell me what you mean"; and they told him about the definite baptism with the Holy Ghost. Then he asked that he might pray with them and not they merely pray for him.
Auntie Cook once told me of the intense fervor with which Mr. Moody prayed on that occasion. She told me in words that I scarcely dare repeat, though I have never forgotten them. And he not only prayed with them, but he also prayed alone.
Not long after, one day on his way to England, he was walking up Wall Street in New York; (Mr. Moody very seldom told this and I almost hesitate to tell it) and in the midst of the bustle and hurry of that city his prayer was answered; the power of God fell upon him as he walked up the street and he had to hurry off to the house of a friend and ask that he might have a room by himself, and in that room he stayed alone for hours; and the Holy Ghost came upon him, filling his soul with such joy that at last he had to ask God to withhold His hand, lest he die on the spot from very joy. He went out from that place with the power of the Holy Ghost upon him, and when he got to London (partly through the prayers of a bedridden saint in Mr. Lessey's church), the power of God wrought through him mightily in North London, and hundreds were added to the churches; and that was what led to his being invited over to the wonderful campaign that followed in later years.
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Post by Runner For Jesus on Nov 12, 2009 12:11:51 GMT -7
Good verses and examples 4Him. I know this is O.T. but Moses tabernacle gives us some good insights as it was a type of our walk with Jesus. There were three sections in the tabernacle. The outer court where salvation and water baptism takes place; the brazen altar and the laver. Then there's another area behind the holy place curtain. The candlestick, incense altar where prayer was given and the shew bread table. The candlestick represents the oil of the Holy Ghost and the middle of it represented Jesus. The third area is behind another curtain and that's the mercy seat the place of overcoming. This is all representative of our walk. When we are saved our spirit is quickened and made alive by the Holy Ghost; but we do not necessarily receive the fullness at that time. Some are filled with the Holy Ghost when they are born again. I was not until later. And our lamp has to be continually filled with the oil as we grow in Christ. The priest had to keep putting oil in that lampstand in order to keep the lights brightly lit in the Holy Place. The wise and foolish virgins all had oil but 5 did not. They were all saved. The unsaved do not have any oil. Just a thought. There are many examples in scripture of what God requires from us.
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Post by clirette on Dec 3, 2009 13:08:44 GMT -7
I was filled with the Holy Spirit waking up from sleep in the middle of the night. I woke up and found myself speaking in Tongues
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