Romans 9 - Predestination of Salvation or Service?

[smweyman]

I have recently read Romans 9 recently, and it's a very difficult passage to read. Reading it, I'm lead to think that God chose who His people are in advance (salvation). However, after doing a little (and I mean little) bit of search in the internet, someone say that Paul do not refer to predestination of salvation, but instead he refers to predestination of service.

Any thoughts?

[Eli Brayley]

The debate between Calvinism and Arminianism has raged for centuries, and I personally find it one of the most difficult topics of the Bible to wrap my mind around. It seems that if you tend too far to one side you'll find yourself in error at some point. Romans 9 is a difficult passage, I agree brother.

I really hope this thread picks up because I'd love to hear people's thoughts on this. Romans 9 can be viewed a few ways; there are more but here are the more popular two:

1. It can be viewed in the strictest Calvinistic sense, where God determines all people's individual salvation or d**nation.

2. It can be viewed that Romans 9 is referring to people groups (Jews/Gentiles) in the historic plan of God and not necessarily individuals.

In the context of Romans 9, 10 and 11 I can agree with option two, yet at the same time there are many other Scriptures that seem to confirm the first option. I personally run up the middle on this issue. I don't think anyone can deny God is sovereign, but to deny man's choice is also unsafe... even if we can't fully explain it.

My primary thoughts on it all:
-Paul comes to a very important conclusion at the end of Romans 11: "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen."

-and David, in Psalm 131: "LORD, my heart is not haughty, nor mine eyes lofty: neither do I exercise myself in great matters, or in things too high for me. Surely I have behaved and quieted myself, as a child that is weaned of his mother: my soul is even as a weaned child. Let Israel hope in the LORD from henceforth and forever."

We must rest in the fact that God is sovereign, but that God is good, and that in our temporal, limited, subjective frame we must face up to our responsibility to choose.

[Josh Parsley]

I would agree with the below. It was wrote by Steve Noel on the OAO board.
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I will attempt here to give an interpretation of Romans 9 that is faithful to the context. I contend that this passage of Scripture when understood in context does not support the Reformed doctrine of unconditional election. I invite comments, criticisms, corrections, and questions for clarity.

I believe that one of the keys to understanding the meaning of Romans 9 is to examine Paul’s own summary of his argument at the close of the chapter. As Grant Osborne says about this summary: “If our conclusions about the author’s argumentation differ from the conclusion he himself provides, it is clear we are misunderstanding his argument.”

Paul begins his summary in verse 30 by asking the question, “What shall we say then?”. He then proceeds to explain the point he has developed in this chapter. “That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the ‘stumbling stone.’ As it is written: ‘See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.’” (Vs. 30-33) Paul’s point in Romans 9 is that unbelieving Israel is lost. The objections throughout the chapter are not coming from Arminians against God’s sovereign choice to unconditionally elect and reprobate. They come from unbelieving Israel; God’s chosen people of whom Paul says, “Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ…” (Vs 4-5).

The unbelief of the majority of the Jews and their present rejection for that unbelief is the issue Paul is dealing with throughout Romans 9-11. F. Leroy Forlines says, “A proper understanding of how Romans 9 relates to election begins with a proper grasp of the problem Paul is dealing with. That problem is the Jewish concern that Paul does not go along with the Jewish belief in the corporate salvation of all Jews as the Covenant Seed of Abraham.”

Let me try to break this passage down as I understand it.

Romans 9:1-4a
Paul begins chapter 9 by expressing his anguish that most of his fellow Israelites are unsaved.

Romans 9:4b-5
They are lost despite the fact that they are God’s chosen people:

Romans 9:6-13
This begs the question: If God’s chosen people are lost, then has God’s word failed? Paul’s answer is no. God never promised to save all of Abraham’s seed just because they descended from him. Paul argues that God is completely justified in rejecting unbelieving Jews. He goes on to point out that even the Jews don’t regard all of Abraham’s seed as part of the covenant seed of Abraham. They already acknowledged that the descendants of Ishmael were not part of the covenant, but only those descended from Isaac. Furthermore, they held that not all the descendants of Isaac were part of the covenant, but only those descended from Jacob. The point Paul was making is that even the Jews admitted that God had not promised salvation to all of Abraham’s descendants. It’s vital to understand that the context of verses 10-12 is Paul making the point that not all the natural seed of Abraham are a part of the covenant seed. Paul is not trying to lay out a doctrine of unconditional election to salvation in this passage. That is foreign to the context. Read in context, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated”, is simply serving to make the point that the Jewish concept of the unconditional election of all Jews as the covenant seed must be discarded.

Romans 9:14-29
Again the key is to keep this in context. When Paul says, “What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!” (14), he is not refuting the Arminian, but the unbelieving Jew. If this is so, then it must be recognized that the Jews had no problem with the rejection of Ishmael and Jacob. Once again Forlines notes, “The only trouble the Jews had with unconditional election was that according to Paul, God had not unconditionally elected all Jews as they had thought.” Paul denies that God is unrighteous in not saving all Jews. In this passage Paul declares that God saves whom He wills and d**ns whom He wills, Jews or otherwise. The quote from Exodus 33:19, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”, supports this point. Robert Picirilli explains, “Even in the wilderness, when we might think all the nation was automatically entitled to His favor he said: ‘I will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.’ In other words, He wanted it clearly established that neither Moses nor Israel had any special claims on Him that took away His sovereign right to act as He chose. Nor will He show mercy to all of them just because they were Israelites in the flesh.” God has sovereignly chosen to have mercy on believers and reject unbelievers, Jews or otherwise. So when Paul says, "It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.", he is simply repeating what he's been saying throught the book of Romans: We are justified by faith and not by works. Once again this smacks the face of the unbelieving Jew's concept of works righteousness.

Romans 9:30-33
Paul makes it clear in his summary that the reason that so many Jews were not saved is not based on the idea that God unconditionally elected some rather than all Jews. Rather, it is because they had failed to meet the condition of faith in Christ. As Forlines so aptly summarizes, "In other words, not all Jews are saved because salvation is conditioned on faith and not all Jews have met the condition. This is the bottom line: salvation is conditioned on faith. And conditional salvation calls for conditional election."

[jessemorrell]

Here's my two cents on Romans 9, which also must be looked at with Romans 10-11. All three chapters go together and are on the same topic:

AN OVERVIEW OF ROMANS 9 - 10 - 11

Paul defends the conditional election of the gentiles (which was of great controversy in the jewish world) and attacked the false notion of the unconditional election of the Israelites.

- First Paul demonstrated God's Sovereignty in selecting nations and using them as He see's fit. Paul gives example of God choosing Jacob (Israel), Esau (Edom) and Pharaoh (Egypt).

The first two (Jacob, Esau) had no relation to God's wrath or mercy because they were not chosen for being good or rejected for being bad. The jews however entertained the thought that they were the "chosen" people because of their righteousness. However, God chose Jacob, to bless his seed, before Jacob did anything good or bad. (Romans 9:11)

God choosing one over the other was choosing to make the great chosen nation out of the one, rather then the other. Something God almost did with Moses (Ex 32:9) but Moses changed his mind. (Ex 32:14)

The last one (Pharaoh, Egypt) properly received God's wrath, in accordance with Pharaohs own evil freewill, as the scriptures say that He hardened Himself (Ex 8:15, Ex 8:32), (God hardened Pharaohs proud heart by bringing threatenings and judgment, which resulted in Pharaoh becoming more stubburn and proud) and the Egyptians were idolators who enslaved the Israelites. And God did this to bring about a purpose which God saw fit, to use a voluntarily sinful person, and a voluntarily sinful nation, to get good - His Glory and power revealed to the nations.

But Jacob was not chosen to unconditional salvation, rather God choose to bless His seed and make out of Him the "chosen people". Esau was not reprobated to unconditional condemnation, his seed was simply not chosen to be the great nation. And Pharoah was not unconditionally reprobated to eternal condemnation. He was simply a willingly sinful person that God choose to show His power and greatness through.

- Then Paul explains how the jews cannot find fault with God for using nations as He sees fit, (because God always acts in accordance with His benevolence and intelligence, God not ever acting arbitrarily even if our finite minds do not understand him, we can trust His character to always do what is wise and good in His eyes). And so the jews cannot find fault with God for having a pre - destiny - (for) nations, like the nation of the gentiles.
Something which the jews in Pauls day were prone to argue against since they thought they were the "chosen"people.

- Then Paul explains how God Sovereignly "cut off" the chosen people Israel because they failed to meet the conditions of their predestination, because they "believed not". They were not unconditionally eternally secure as they imagined, and Paul even warned the chosen gentiles to "fear" "lest you too be cut off"

- Then Paul showed how God has grafted in the Gentiles, just as He always predetermined to do, because He always had a pre-determined/destiny - (for) nations [pre-destiny-nations], even a predetermined plan for the Gentiles.

Hence, God told Abraham "In they seed shall ALL NATIONS be blessed" (Gen 22:18, 26:4) and God spoke by Isaiah saying the jews were chosen to be "a light unto the Gentiles" (Isaiah 42:6).

VERY SIMPLY:

Paul answered the Jews, how they cannot find fault with God for hardening (cutting off) Israel while showing mercy (grafting in) the gentiles. There is no fault in the justice of God for cutting off the unbelieving, and grafting in those with repentant faith. (Rom 9:30-32)

And Paul answered the misconceptions that the Jews had, that they were the chosen people because of their own goodness, rather then because of God's mercy, and that they were unconditionally eternally secure because they were the elect, "chosen" people.

And so Paul showed how they were not chosen for their goodness, nor eternally secure because they were chosen, but that they were "cut off" "because of unbelief" because they failed to meet the terms of their conditional election.

Predestination is God's pre-destiny (for) - nations, which predetermined plan was to offer salvation to all nations that repent and believe, that God would ultimately choose to save those individuals who voluntarily repent of their sins and put their faith in the forgiving grace of God.

[runner4jesus]

::)This may sound simple, but before I came to Christ a number of things happened to me even as a child that would have ended my life. God had his hand upon me all along, and used many things to bring me to him.

At the dinner table Tim shared about the prophet Jeremiah. 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

In his sovereignty, he knew we would be his. Yes, we have to choose him and accept what he did on the cross. There's a beautiful verse in Ephesians 1:4-6 look up 5 & 6. Verse 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.

In verse 5 mentions predestined us; decreed beforehand, foreordained. Now, I only know what the word says. I have no idea what Calvinism or Armenianism is and have never understood that;
all I know is what God has to say about us. When you see how God brought us to himself, then it's not so hard to understand how great his love is towards us.

[Eli Brayley]

Margie, I would say the best thing to do is NOT get caught up in the debate between Calvinism and Arminianism but simply read and believe the Bible for what it says.

So keep it up, sister!

[runner4jesus]

Thank you Eli, for your advice. Approaching the Word of God in simplicity and truth has always been what Jesus puts on my heart in a simple way.