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Post by dannylirette on Apr 20, 2010 10:36:49 GMT -7
Jesus gave us the measuring stick test:
Love God Love your neighbor.
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Post by 4him on Apr 20, 2010 11:33:35 GMT -7
Hi Guys,
Back to the original topic ' Where do we obtain the assurance of our salvation ?', absolutely it is in Christ alone. All other ground is sinking sand. The helmet of salvation is one of our spiritual weapons and we can claim all of God's promises (eg 'whoever comes to me I will in no wise cast out' etc). When doubts, fears, and a sense of our sinfulness assails us, it is the assurance of what Christ has done for us on the cross, that will bring a sweet consolation to our souls. (I experienced this in a powerful way fairly recently, during one such trial)
In a practical sense though, if we sin to the hilt as a Christian, I believe God has built into us a natural tendency to feel miserable. As Christians, there are times when we just let ourselves give into sin for a season, and I believe one of the natural consequences God has built into our spirits/souls is to feel a sense of uncleanness at this times. I am guessing that all of you have experienced what I am talking about. That's what drives us to the Saviour, to return to him to confess our sin, and to receive cleansing and a renewal in our relationship. (An open heaven so to speak).
As well, the Bible says, 'neither give place to to the Devil'. I believe that if as a Christian, we choose to go to a death metal concert, or a horror movie etc, activities such as these could give Satan 'ground', which I believe means that he has a right to oppress us. Part of this oppression, may come in the form of causing us to doubt our salvation.
So again, I agree completely that our assurance of salvation rests upon the finished work of Christ. However, if we 'neglect this great salvation', I do believe our conscience will suffer, due to an awareness of unconfessed sin, and we'll give ground to Satan to buffet us, and to diminish our peace.
So in my thinking, we should counsel Christians to walk closely with the Lord, if we want the benefit of a clean conscience 'void of offence', and if we want to prevent Satan from being able to gain a 'foothold' in our lives.
In Jesus, John
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Post by 4him on Apr 20, 2010 15:53:17 GMT -7
Here's an excerpt from an article by JC Ryle, which to me sums up a number of things about what 'true holiness' is all about, which relates to what we've been discussing in this thread. This is from an article called, 'We must be holy'.
Holiness cannot justify and save us: holiness cannot cover our iniquities, make satisfaction for transgressions, pay our debts to God. Our best works are no better than filthy rags, when tried by the light of God's law. The righteousness which Jesus Christ brought in must be our only confidence,—the blood of atonement our only hope. All this is perfectly true, and yet we must be holy.
We must be holy, because God in the Bible plainly commands it. "As He which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy" (1 Peter i. 15, 16).
We must be holy, because this is one great end for which Christ came into the world. "He died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto Him which died for them, and rose again" (2 Cor. v. 15).
We must be holy, because this is the only sound evidence that we have a saving faith in Christ. "Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also" (James ii. 17, 26).
We must be holy, because this is the only proof that we love the Lord Jesus Christ in sincerity. What can be more plain than our Lord's own words? "If ye love Me, keep my commandments." "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me." (John xiv. 15, 21).
We must be holy, because this is the only sound evidence that we are God's children. "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." "Whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God" (Rom. viii. 14; I John iii. 10).
In Jesus, John
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Post by Steve Noel on Apr 20, 2010 16:54:23 GMT -7
Hello Eli,
Alan directed me to this discussion so I thought I would jump in. Let me start out by saying that I'm with Dan in viewing this position that you and Alan have espoused as deeply concerning. The only books I've ever read or own on the "Lordship Controversy" are MacArthur's books The Gospel According to Jesus and The Gospel According to the Apostles. Though I'm in strong disagreement with MacArthur on Dispensationalism, Calvinism, and Cessationism I'm pretty well lined up with him on this issue. The first time I came across the Lordship position I wasn't even aware of the controversy and the book I was reading (It's Time to Rock the Boat by Dr. Michael L. Brown) didn't really explain it in the chapter that deals with this issue. He didn't even call it the "Lordship salvation" teaching. He simply went through various Scriptures showing it from the Bible. That chapter deeply resonated with my reading of Scripture and I was quite surprised to learn of Christians who rejected that viewpoint. It was only later that I read MacArthur's works and became more aware of the debate. I've not read a lot from the "Free Grace" side and this is unusual for me. I generally try to understand a position from it's best proponents before criticizing or interacting with it. Perhaps you could suggest some books for me? Despite my lack of firsthand knowledge of your position I would still like to interact with you on it.
If I may I'd be interested in your viewpoint on a couple of things regarding assurance.
1. What about false assurance? Those who have "assurance" but are not genuinely born again (I'm sure you are aware that there are many.)
2. Isn't there also a category of people that do not have assurance because they are not genuinely born again even though they claim to believe the gospel? To bring such a person to an understanding of their "assurance" in Christ is disastrous to their soul because it convinces them of their acceptance with God when they are still enemies of God. This is what terrifies me the most about your position as I see it.
From my perspective the church has been decimated by this kind of "Christian" and the "Free Grace" teaching is at the root of the problem. Such people live in unrepentant sin and yet claim that they have assurance of salvation because their faith is in Christ and his work and not in themselves. In my estimation this is one of the most insidious false teachings around and one that we are warned about repeatedly in the New Testament. Thus, it's NOT a secondary issue that we can grant liberty of disagreement on but essential. I look forward to your response. Steve
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Post by dannylirette on Apr 20, 2010 17:53:53 GMT -7
Isn't there also a category of people that do not have assurance because they are not genuinely born again even though they claim to believe the gospel? To bring such a person to an understanding of their "assurance" in Christ is disastrous to their soul because it convinces them of their acceptance with God when they are still enemies of God. This is what terrifies me the most about your position as I see it. Steve This is what scares me the most also.
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Post by Eli Brayley on Apr 22, 2010 12:00:25 GMT -7
Hello everybody. Please forgive my delay in answering, but we have a rainy day today so I actually have some time to write. There are multiple posts to address but I'll try and touch on the main points. First of all, let me agree with you all that works are extremely important, and that God has not saved us so that we should continue in sin but purposes to purify a people zealous for good works (Titus 2:14), works which were before ordained from the foundation of the world (Eph. 2:10). God wills our sanctification (1 Thess. 4:3) and it becomes every saint to walk worthy of the Lord (Col. 1:10) and to depart from iniquity (2 Tim 2:19). Our good works are powerful witnesses to the world that God is with us, and that we are His disciples (Matt. 5:16, John 13:34-35). Our lives ought to adorn the gospel (Titus 2:10). So in everything that has been said, we are not saying that works are unimportant or insignificant. What we are saying is that works are not the ultimate ground for assurance of salvation. This is because Christians may, and do, sin. And non-Christian may, and do, many good works. The most important reason we cannot make works the ground of assurance is because the gospel states that whoever "does not work, but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted unto righteousness." (Rom. 4:5) Think about David, who is mentioned in the following verses in chapter 4; he certainly was believing in God's salvation, though when he committed adultery and murder many people would probably write him off as an unbeliever. But the truth was: he was truly a righteous man who sinned horribly. His evil works certainly were not consistent with his faith in God, and they certainly caused the enemies of Israel to reproach God's name, but he was no less a saved man. Thus, works are incredibly important, but they are not always accurate indicators of someones faith. The bottom line is this: if a person is indeed trusting in Christ, they are saved. God will not cast out anyone who is trusting in the blood Christ. He will not require of us both to trust in Christ and to do good works. God wants the Christian to abound in good works and to depart from iniquity, but it is no requirement of salvation, otherwise "grace is no more grace" and the gospel is frustrated. But we put extra requirements on people that God has not put on them. We say: "Oh, you must believe, but that is not enough. You must make Jesus Lord of your life (meaning, you must obey Him and cease from sin)." That is radically evangelical. I do not want to make it harder for someone to get saved than God does. Or as one dear pastor once put it: "I don't want membership in my church to be more difficult to obtain than membership in Christ's Church." That is profoundly wise. Again, this does not mean we undervalue the importance of works, but we understand works in their proper place and do not frustrate the grace of God in our reaction against false professors. Of course there are false professors, and of course we are not saying that the sinner's prayer saves you. It is only faith in Jesus Christ that brings salvation. Many people are catechized but do not have real faith in what they can recite. So how can we know? Let me say that sometimes you just don't know. Everything might line up and you find out you were wrong in your estimation of someone. Or everything might look bad (ie. David) and you also found out you were wrong. That is why the Bible says, "The Lord knows those who are His." (2 Tim. 2:19) But it certainly isn't always true that we don't know. Certainly when someone professes Christ, and manifests love toward people, especially the brethren, we have no reason to doubt His profession. Works do reveal consistency, but I will again say that they may not always be consistent and therefore accurate evidences of salvation. They may serve as evidence, like in a court, but they cannot be used as conclusive evidence. They certainly add weight to the case, but they don't close the case. As for ourselves, we must learn to find assurance of salvation in Christ alone and not in ourselves. Simply trusting in Christ alone and what He did gives us all the ground for assurance that we need. And it is only when we are resting in the assurance of the love and grace of God for us in Christ Jesus that we will be freed to live the life of love that God saves believers to live. Until then we operate in fear, but once we are resting we serve in the way that God intends. As long as we are worrying about our own salvation and looking to our own works for our assurance, we are not resting in Jesus, nor will we be freely loving others from the heart. "That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear, in holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life." (Luke 1:74-75) If you'd like to read more about the "Free Grace" side, I recommend the ministry, Grace Evangelical Society: www.faithalone.org. Though I don't agree with everything they say, nor their dispensationalism, that is a great place to start as they have many excellent resources, scholarship, book reviews and important information about the Lordship debate. Blessings, -Eli
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Post by Eli Brayley on Apr 22, 2010 12:14:42 GMT -7
One last thing I must add. I wholeheartedly disagree with your statement, Steve, for the decimation of the Church has never had it's root in the teaching of the free grace of God (the only kind of grace there is) but the teaching of works-based righteousness. The Roman Catholic Church has for generations taught that we must stop our sins to be saved and look what darkness covers, and has covered, the world. All religions except for Christianity deny grace and teach we must do good works, and look what a mess has been produced. In fact, I find it incredibly rare to find a Christian church that actually preaches the gospel of grace.
As for the New Testament, the insidious teaching that kept trying to creep in was that people must work righteousness to be saved. This wicked doctrine, though it has a form of godliness, is the most evil and deceptive of all, and the one Satan loves best as it captures men so easily and plays on their God-given conscience. You will never find Satan preaching the true grace of God. However, you will find him everywhere preaching a righteousness other than the righteousness which is from God by faith in Jesus Christ.
"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works." (2 Cor. 11:13-15)
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Post by 4him on Apr 24, 2010 16:10:56 GMT -7
Hi Eli,
On the main point you were promoting that Christ alone is the source of our salvation and He is also our sanctification, we are in much agreement.
Colossians 3:4 "When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory."
Galations 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."
In Jesus, John
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Post by 4him on Apr 25, 2010 16:47:29 GMT -7
Here's a portion of Charles Spurgeon's sermon called, 'Looking unto Jesus'. In it, he shares some of the struggles he sometimes had, and others had, in this area of Assurance of Salvation. As well, he shares the surest remedy to combat these doubts- to fix our eyes upon Jesus.
Hope it blesses you :-) In Jesus, John
You know what Dr. Carey had put on his tomb-stone—just these words, for they were his comfort;— "A guilty, weak, and helpless worm, Into Christ's arms I fall; He is my strength and righteousness, My Jesus and my all."
Remember what that eminent Scotch divine said, when he was dying. Some one said to him, "What, are you dying now?" Said he, "I am just gathering all my good works up together, and I am throwing them all overboard; and I am lashing myself to the plank of free grace, and I hope to swim to glory on it."
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Post by dannylirette on Apr 30, 2010 21:30:30 GMT -7
I got it! (well, the essence of what you're saying).
I went to bed the other evening and pictured John the Baptist crying out in the wilderness, "Repent! For the Kingdom of God is at hand!"
Then the thought came to me, "Who was he speaking to?"
The answer came just as fast: "To Jews who trusted in the Law to save them."
He was calling them to repent from trusting in their own righteousness!
Praise God for this revelation!!!!!!
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Post by dannylirette on May 1, 2010 15:11:52 GMT -7
To further confirm this, we need only look to the Book of Acts.
Peter preached and thjree thousand were saved.
The question is, "Who were his audience?"
His audience were those celebrating the feasts of the Lord.
In other words, they were law keepers!
Peter said "repent!".
He wasn't saying this to nightclubbing adulterers!
He was saying it to people who trusted in the Law (their own righteousness) to save them!
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Post by Eli Brayley on May 1, 2010 17:04:57 GMT -7
PRAISE GOD!!! AMEN , Dan!
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Post by dannylirette on May 2, 2010 4:37:57 GMT -7
Try to keep the law= Works of the flesh (the law of sin and death) Faith in Christ= Fruit of the Spirit (the law of the Spirit of Life)
Amazing that I've never seen this before!
When you first started on this thread I was very skeptical, but prayed, "Lord, is this true?"
Just the other night He began revealing the truth of it to me!
To repent is to turn from our own righteousness to the righteousness of Christ which then results in the fruit of the Spirit.
Is there anything else that I may be not seeing in this? I want to know so I can ask the Lord about it... it's one thing to read but it's a glorious thing for God Almighty to reveal the truth of what you're reading, Amen!
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Post by Eli Brayley on May 2, 2010 15:19:00 GMT -7
Dan! I am so encouraged! Praise God for His living Word that truly transforms our lives. It is so exciting to read the Scriptures in the light of grace - God is going to show you more and more depths of His grace that you've never seen before! We'll continue discussing the Scriptures together in the future!
Love in Christ, -Eli
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Post by dannylirette on May 17, 2010 20:05:32 GMT -7
I am enjoying this immensely!
When Scripture speaks of "walking in the flesh" it's not, as many presume...as I once presumed...walking in the works of the flesh.
No!
Walking in the flesh is walking in our own righteousness...trying to please God by our own efforts, which leads to the works of the flesh!
If we walk in the Spirit...trust fully and only in Christ's Finished Wok at the Cross...then we'll walk in the fruit of the Spirit.
Those who preach that one must "maintain" his Salvation through works are in error.
Works maintain nothing; they only show that our faith in Christ is alive and active. Works are a compliment to our faith, not the source of it.
The Author and Finisher of our Faith is Jesus and Jesus alone.
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